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View Full Version : Question about Andrew Ryan (Spoilers of course)


D0cman88
08-28-2007, 02:06 PM
Why did Ryan allow you to kill him?

I've come up with some theories like his city was finished anyway and he didn't want to live anymore. Or maybe he knew that he couldn't defeat you as you were created to take him down.

It's just interesting because he figures out what your "obey phrase" is and he could've used that to make you go kill Fontaine.

I don't know I just found it interesting that he didn't even put up a fight.:confused:

EDIT: Feel free to use the spoiler tags in the future =) (if you don't know how then search for the announcement)

ThrillKillBill
08-28-2007, 06:18 PM
Luke........ he's your father :rolleyes:

Flik Nightshade
08-28-2007, 08:55 PM
I can't personally figure it out either. I've read various speculation that the confrontation was staged to lure Fontaine out into the open. With Ryan dead, Fontaine would come out to claim control and well, we know how that ends. The thing being is, according to the various audio diaries, Ryan should have been resurrected somewhere in the facility. [The fact that there was an activatable VitaChaimber right there was always strange to me.] So, he could have very well revived, fled, and left you to clean up the mess.

Or he could have been just an arrogant shit who thought he'd dissuade you from the task at hand; his murder. All in all, I'm not sure what happened. For all we know, that little loophole could have been left for a sequel to BioShock, who knows.

twelve
08-28-2007, 09:27 PM
I can't personally figure it out either. I've read various speculation that the confrontation was staged to lure Fontaine out into the open. With Ryan dead, Fontaine would come out to claim control and well, we know how that ends. The thing being is, according to the various audio diaries, Ryan should have been resurrected somewhere in the facility. [The fact that there was an activatable VitaChaimber right there was always strange to me.] So, he could have very well revived, fled, and left you to clean up the mess.

Or he could have been just an arrogant shit who thought he'd dissuade you from the task at hand; his murder. All in all, I'm not sure what happened. For all we know, that little loophole could have been left for a sequel to BioShock, who knows.
That's my bet.

Bioshock 2 (if they make a sequel) will most likely be back in rapture again, Ryan's back at the controls after you have killed Fontaine and is trying to rebuild it and also track you and the little sisters down.

That's my reckoning for the opening of it.

Fire Mage
08-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Personally, I after seeing everything in the game, I don't even think that Andrew Ryan was bad.

Throughout the game he was made out as the MAIN EVIL of the whole thing.

But in fact, I don't think he was evil at all. Just a bit before you reach him, he finally figured out that you were Fontaine's mind puppet. Once he found this out, he tried to stop you at all costs, because he knew that Fontaine would ruin Rapture.

But once he realized he couldn't stop you, he decided to let fate take control and wanted to be put out of the misery of seeing his crumbling city.


All in all, Ryan was a good guy in the beginning whose mind just got warped as Atlas/Fontaine started to tear apart his masterpiece city.



P.S. If the theory about the Vitachamber is true, then that's ridiculous. Because if so, wouldn't EVERYONE have come back to life. Suchong wouldn't still be lying on a table with a Big Daddy drill through him, and everyone would be alive and so on.

Nightmare135
08-28-2007, 10:32 PM
P.S. If the theory about the Vitachamber is true, then that's ridiculous. Because if so, wouldn't EVERYONE have come back to life. Suchong wouldn't still be lying on a table with a Big Daddy drill through him, and everyone would be alive and so on.

Not true because if you listen to the diary by the vita-chamber in Ryan's office it says that the chambers are programmed with Ryan's DNA thats why you can use them.

Fire Mage
08-28-2007, 11:31 PM
Not true because if you listen to the diary by the vita-chamber in Ryan's office it says that the chambers are programmed with Ryan's DNA thats why you can use them.
Oh I didn't quite remember that.


Either way, all the events of the story kind of make me think that Ryan was actually good.

Dave
08-28-2007, 11:39 PM
i think ryan didnt know that fontiane was still alive and realized that he was conored and there was no way out, thats why he activated the self-destruct

and yes i agree, i think ryan was actual a good person, although some of his intentions were not, i think he was just trying to defend himself from losing the city to fontaine, the whole splicer thing i think he never meant for it to happen and i remember after i killed him and atlas revealed his true self i felt bad for killing ryan becuase then i relazied that he was not that bad guy atlas made me believe he was

Zef
08-28-2007, 11:43 PM
If you collect all of the diaries and listen/read them all you get the backstory of how things came to be, not all of them are totally relevant to Ryan's "evilness" though. I started the game thinking that Ryan was an evil tyrant who was ruling Rapture, get further into the game and you realise he is one of many survivors after a whole lot of chaos, but he isn't necessarily the big cheese.

Mega-spoilers
You learn about the rivalry between Ryan and Fontaine, and how Fontaine is pulling the city down with his activities. The two companies are basically at each others throat trying to get more money, but each goes different ways in doing this and this is where it gets twisted a bit.

Fontaine is the one who started researching genetic engineering (plasmids) and eventually started 'making' Little Sisters using Tenebaum and Suchong. Ryan caught onto this and also got into the Plasmid business, hence why your plasmids are all from Ryan Industries. But once Fontaine 'dies' Ryan has a monopoly going and eventually takes over Suchong who is working on 'making' Big Daddies. So Fontaine was really the more powerful until he faked his own death and became Atlas, letting Ryan do as he pleased whilst also messing things up for him by starting the war that screwed things up.

Ryan couldn't do a whole lot to fix things at this point and he was being pressured to go against some of the fundamental ideas of Rapture to keep it under control. Lots of his diaries contain his ramblings about whether he was right or not, whether he should stick to the true Rapture 'philosophy' or whether he should take over and become the leader.

There might be a few errors there, but it was from memory =P

Fire Mage
08-29-2007, 12:09 AM
Yeah, I found all of the Audio Diaries which was the main reason I started thinking that about Ryan.

The last one that I found was Andrew Ryan's "Mistakes" diary. That was one the main diary where he was really questioning what he had done, but at the same time he began to twist in his mind as the diary finishes with him saying that Fontaine/Atlas must die.


I just felt really bad for Ryan as he tried to make this perfect city, and all the other people destroyed it.


Also, I really hated Fontaine. I kind of wanted Atlas just to be the bad guy. But when Fontaine came in, he just got piss annoying. His voice was irritating too, with some fake New York accent or whatever it was.

But I guess it made him a good bad guy?

Tremlos
08-29-2007, 01:53 AM
I think Ryan was trying to get you to choose to not kill him, especially when he said "A man chooses, a slave obeys."

killerharu45
08-29-2007, 01:56 AM
I think Ryan was good but a little corrupted. Its a very confusing subject. all of these ideas are true. There may become a series of bioshock novels just like halo and mass effect. And im not thinking of the other ones that are mentioned on the forum.

brentkid
08-29-2007, 02:38 AM
Yeah, I found all of the Audio Diaries which was the main reason I started thinking that about Ryan.

The last one that I found was Andrew Ryan's "Mistakes" diary. That was one the main diary where he was really questioning what he had done, but at the same time he began to twist in his mind as the diary finishes with him saying that Fontaine/Atlas must die.


I just felt really bad for Ryan as he tried to make this perfect city, and all the other people destroyed it.


Also, I really hated Fontaine. I kind of wanted Atlas just to be the bad guy. But when Fontaine came in, he just got piss annoying. His voice was irritating too, with some fake New York accent or whatever it was.

But I guess it made him a good bad guy?
I was the same way. Once everything started to unfold, I wanted to kill him so bad. Haha, I guess that's a good thing.

Dave
08-29-2007, 02:52 AM
once i started listening to the story i hated ryan less and less, and then i relazied that it was a mistake to kill him

ThrillKillBill
08-29-2007, 04:44 AM
Luke........ he's your father :rolleyes:

It appears that people don't6 understand what i'm saying here so i'll elaborate. According to the diaries a child was raised in the lab to be under Fontaines mind control. Thats what Ryan explains to yo as well, and then Fontaine brags about. Ryan decides he cannot kill you only after he has seen you face to face per se. What did he recognize in you that he couldn't lift his hand against? Well that was explained in other diaries where the girl whom Ryan murdered in the strip club got impregnated with Ryans child at the payed request of fountaine, said child was then raised in a lab by none other then Suchan.

That baby was you, Ryan could not kill his own child, even one raised to kill him.

Now, why didn't Ryan try to explain this all to you and help you remove the implants. Well you did but failed, he was ultimately banking that you could over-come the mind-control with his repeated comments "A man chooses, a slave obeys" that that did not succeed. Other then that, he did not know of a antidote, only 2 people did until Tennebon put two and two together after Ryan's death.

DFILL450
08-29-2007, 04:55 AM
yeah at the end when you had to kill ryan i kinda felt bad..i agree he felt like the good guy and all of a sudden u just got pissed at atlas lol..i think the game did a really good job in emersing u into the story..i still dont understand how atlas staged the plane crash and all that tho can someone explain that to me?

Dave
08-29-2007, 05:50 AM
didnt fontaine say he was ur father

1138
08-29-2007, 05:56 AM
Because he couldn't possibly live, duh. He freed himself from his own terror and the city he created. He had experienced a Great Truth and passed it on. He had no more reason to live. It wasn't in the cards. It's like the Wages of Fear. No one escapes.

ThrillKillBill
08-29-2007, 06:01 AM
didnt fontaine say he was ur father

no, he said that you were the closet thing he ever had to a son.

Dave
08-29-2007, 06:24 AM
ah yes that is true
but that also leads to the question how old is the player

dropoff
08-29-2007, 06:33 AM
In a way Fontaine and Ryan are like fathers to the main character. If you went into the Eves Garden strip club you find out that Ryan was banging a hooker, and she sold her eggs to Tenenbaum( Jasmine Jolene - Pregnancy ). Ryan found out and killed her, but the that was the baby that Fontaine would mind control to use to get back at Ryan later on. That might also explain why Ryan did not want to kill the main character, he might of felt guilty killing his son and hoped to break through his curse when he said.. a man chooses, a slave obeys.

Anyone feel to correct me if im wrong.

Dave
08-29-2007, 07:00 AM
hmm that makes sense to me i guess

ThrillKillBill
08-29-2007, 07:15 AM
In a way Fontaine and Ryan are like fathers to the main character. If you went into the Eves Garden strip club you find out that Ryan was banging a hooker, and she sold her eggs to Tenenbaum( Jasmine Jolene - Pregnancy ). Ryan found out and killed her, but the that was the baby that Fontaine would mind control to use to get back at Ryan later on. That might also explain why Ryan did not want to kill the main character, he might of felt guilty killing his son and hoped to break through his curse when he said.. a man chooses, a slave obeys.

Anyone feel to correct me if im wrong.

I explained all that in my spoiler....... way to not use spoilers :mad::p

ah yes that is true
but that also leads to the question how old is the player

Well in one of the diaries it mentions they child subject is *forget the age* such 'n' such age but has the muscle structure of a 18 year old. I would wager the player is in his 20's somewhere physically but in actual years its hard to guess as they seemed to have accelerated his growth somehow.

Aussiegore
08-29-2007, 12:50 PM
Ye I thought he was trying to make you choose to be you're own master and not Fontaines. But yer the hole story line was pretty crap, but good game in the end.

But when you find out that Ryan killed the hooker/Pole dancer, don't you see her dead body on the bed? which means her body would have had been there for 20 odd years? or was it just a body

Owen H Brown
08-29-2007, 01:17 PM
Dude... It was a GREAT story and her body hasn't been there for 20 years. Jack had his growth accelerated, Suchong's diary hints at this.

I'll bet you didn't like the story because you didn't understand it.

Dave
08-29-2007, 02:21 PM
bro if her body was there for more than twenty years then how come its not fully decomposed and the story line was awesome!

Zef
08-29-2007, 02:31 PM
i still dont understand how atlas staged the plane crash and all that tho can someone explain that to me?

In the opening clip where you are on the plane you are holding a present with a tag on it saying:

"Jack(?), Would you kindly..."

Or something like that. At the start you just see it as a regular present, nothing out of the ordinary. But later on you get a cutscene/flashback of you opening the present and inside is a gun, it then goes dark and you hear gunshots and then the plane crashes. So obviously Fontaine sent you the present knowing you would be on a plane that passed over the Rapture entrance, put the 'Would you kindly [command]' onto the tag knowing that he can control you, and the plane crashes.

ThrillKillBill
08-29-2007, 06:01 PM
good job zef....... I was gonna keep quiet on that one ;)

bottonline, the story explains it self very well if you just consider each separate clue :p

robertfee
08-29-2007, 06:11 PM
yeah, this was such a fantastic story. it's almost too good as most of the other big holiday games will seem bittersweet because they won't be as good as bioshock. great great game

ThrillKillBill
08-29-2007, 06:17 PM
yeah, this was such a fantastic story. it's almost too good as most of the other big holiday games will seem bittersweet because they won't be as good as bioshock. great great game

:goodpost That my friend is a million dollar post, I couldn't agree more. Though I hope Assassins Creed is on par :)

Fire Mage
08-29-2007, 06:20 PM
Although Bioshock is a VERY VERY good game, I don't think it'll make others bittersweet.

If another game tries to go the same route as Bioshock, then that game will definitely suck. But I try not to compare games out of their genres.


So I figure games like Call of Duty 4, Assassin's Creed, and all will still be very good games.

Reborn
08-29-2007, 09:49 PM
I love this topic so much, it explained a lot of open questions for me, like why the plain crashed. But i have still a question; The parents of Jack in the 'real world' are robots or something too? because I thaught i saw something like that in a flashback...

Dave
08-29-2007, 10:27 PM
they arent robots they dont excist, fontaine implanted those memories in the characters head

Zef
08-29-2007, 11:12 PM
You'll notice that the images you keep getting flashbacks of make an appearance in a room before you meet Ryan. And as Dave said, they are implanted memories of a sort.

And for those who are interested, Jack is about 12-13 years old despite looking like an adult.

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Jack

As soon as Jack was born, he was taken by Rapture's scientists for mental conditioning at the order of Frank Fontaine for the purpose of assassinating Andrew Ryan. At a young age he was sent to the surface, where he grew to full adulthood in a span of twelve years. Upon Fontaine's command, Jack boards a plane that passes over Rapture's entrance, then hijacks it, forcing it's crash landing.

Aussiegore
08-30-2007, 07:38 AM
I did understand the story line, but I still think it was a load of crap and all round boring, but thats just my opinion, all though I did enjoy it at points.

Since you became a big daddy you would never be able to speak English again cause a narly drill machine, which destroyed you voice box gg XD

Dave
08-30-2007, 08:09 PM
how was the story boring

PhoenixBlade
08-31-2007, 12:15 PM
Here's my two cents, feel free to chip away.

Rapture was Ryan's dream and vision. When something like that comes to life, the reality of bringing together the greatest minds into an enclosed society, free from the duties and obligations of the outside world, you darn well want to hang onto it.

Ryan learns of Fontaine's plans - particuarly the birthing of a child that is Ryan's son - and snaps. Not because of Jack being his son, but because of what Fontaine would do to him. He kills the woman whom he impregnated, had Fontaine killed, but around the time Atlas appears, I believe Ryan knew he was unsuccessful. He understood what Suchong and Tenenbaum were working on and realizes what must be done.

When Jack returns to Rapture, Ryan doesn't immediately know who he is, but he knows he must defend Rapture, must stand by his dream. It is around the time Jack reaches Hepheastus (and assuming Ryan has been listening in on at least some of the transmissions from Atlas, as seems to be the case), that Ryan finally understands who Jack is and what he'll do. He panics in the beginning, not because he is going to die, but because Jack is his son, the only worthy successor to Rapture and, in the end, however mangled or engineered he might be, the true son of Rapture. (the Little Sisters were little more than experiments, but Jack also retains Ryan's genes)


So he can't give up Rapture and he can't kill his son. The moment of the confrontation is the culmination of his own way to turn things around: let Jack decide what is best. "A man chooses, a slave obeys." That phrase might have worked just as well as anything Tenenbaum might have done to Jack while he was unconscious.

Woo, that was long-winded, sorry. Just wanted to get my theory out there.

D0cman88
09-01-2007, 08:40 PM
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the only way you (Jack) were able to get so close to Ryan was because of your DNA being the same as Ryan's.

Anyway, these are all good thoughts for the most part, but I still have some doubts. You see what makes it hard to believe is that Ryan is a powerful man.

And what do all men with power want? More Power (The Oracle from the Matrix)

But seriously it's just hard for me to believe that a man as powerful as Ryan and one who hates being opposed, would gladly give up his dream even for his son. I realize that this is just speculation but still, I don't see why he would willingly die.

And everyone who says Ryan ends up being a good guy, I disagree. I think it's kind of like having two mob bosses and one of them sells drugs to kids and one of them doesn't. They are both still breaking the law and doing bad things.

They both were bad guys and it's only fitting that you killed both of them.

Now another question I have, did Tenebaum know the whole time who you were and just not say anything or did she not know?

Legend Has It 1
09-02-2007, 02:11 AM
you fuckers need to say SPOILER before you go beyond the topic at hand...I found about shit I haven't even got to yet because you people are relating other parts to it.

ThrillKillBill
09-02-2007, 04:11 AM
you fuckers need to say SPOILER before you go beyond the topic at hand...I found about shit I haven't even got to yet because you people are relating other parts to it.

whoa whoa whoa...... there is a rude way to say things and a correct way to say things...... next time try the correct way.

BTW, the thread title mentions there are spoilers so why did you click it?

Brighton X
09-02-2007, 03:43 PM
I agree with ThrillKillBill, & I'm only at Neptune's Bounty. You are somehow related to Andrew Ryan for 2 reasons that I know so far:
1) The Vita-Chambers are linked to Ryan's DNA
2) There is a Diary behind a turret in Neptune's Bounty Lower Wharf that says something along the lines of "The only people that can use the Bathyspheres are Andrew Ryan & his inner circle, but I have heard that the Genetic Keys aren't good and cousins, daughters, brothers, anyone with close to the same genetic make-up can have smooth travel around Rapture."

D0cman88
09-03-2007, 03:03 AM
you fuckers need to say SPOILER before you go beyond the topic at hand...I found about shit I haven't even got to yet because you people are relating other parts to it.

We can talk about whatever the hell we want. It says spoilers in the freaking title. Why would you click on something that has spoiler in the title if you haven't finished the game?

I don't even understand why we need to put the spoiler things in posts. I guess it's to be nice, but if people are stupid enough to venture into a thread with spoiler in the title then they deserve what they get.

I didn't even come to this board until I finished the entire game the first time.

zdarko43
09-03-2007, 06:33 AM
wow i'm already on my second playthru of the game, and its really good.

and alot of these above posts, now that i think of it, actually stand out. i guess the first time i went thru it i didnt take much time and explore the environments and collect all of the recordings, which i am this time on hard mode, so then it may explain a little more about the story.

but i did catch that ryan had a child, and that you were born in rapture, but i guess i never truly put two and two together...
damn fontaine. i'll make that bastard really pay this time round.:uzi::uzi::uzi:

it just sucks that you dont have a choice whether or not to save ryans life.

but still, better yet, like someone mentioned in an above post, why in the world wouldn't ryan have said "would you kindly"... and tried to ressurrect the problem at hand.

but again, on the other hand, as some other person i believe mentioned that ryan knew that he wouldnt be able to stop him, and that ryan knew his city he built was going to shit so he decided to die before seeing the destruction of rapture... or could it be that he was being revitalized in the chamber?

but these are the types of questions that drive the plot of the story, and either leave the user with the question in their mind, OR, could be a good reason for a sequel!:)

Fire Mage
09-03-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm surprised no one brought this up:


The "bad" ending of the game has Tenenbaum say "Your father was terrified that people would find out the secrets of his city."

Well obviously, Andrew Ryan was afraid of the outside world finding out Rapture.


So that makes Ryan your father.

Fruhmann360
09-03-2007, 10:40 PM
So that makes Ryan your father.

call maury povich!

so that means that bed ridden corpse beyond the stripper pole was mom?

ThrillKillBill
09-03-2007, 10:54 PM
but still, better yet, like someone mentioned in an above post, why in the world wouldn't ryan have said "would you kindly"... and tried to ressurrect the problem at hand.



Ryan wanted you to break the mind-control hold not exploit it against you. "A man chooses, a slave obeys" He wanted you to choose yours and Raptures destiny not simply to be a slave to anothers will.

Pukgandi
09-04-2007, 12:23 AM
call maury povich!

so that means that bed ridden corpse beyond the stripper pole was mom?

Correct. :p

-Edit-

"Jasmine Jolene - Pregnancy
That creepy Dr. Tenenbaum promised me it wasn't gonna be a real
pregnancy, they'd just take the egg out once Mr. Ryan and I had... I
needed the money so bad... But I know Mr. Ryan's gonna suss it out,
gonna know I wasn't being careful... gonna know I sold the... Mr. Ryan's
gonna be so mad at me..." -Taken from gamefaqs audio diary guide

Fruhmann360
09-04-2007, 12:27 AM
Correct. :p


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

AnimeCommander
09-04-2007, 10:27 AM
I'm surprised no one brought this up:


The "bad" ending of the game has Tenenbaum say "Your father was terrified that people would find out the secrets of his city."

Well obviously, Andrew Ryan was afraid of the outside world finding out Rapture.


So that makes Ryan your father.
I don't think Ryan was afraid of the outside world finding out about Rapture. I'm pretty sure there are a couple diaries that mention people coming to Rapture and being shocked by the Tonic usage. So Rapture is known of but the current events are cut off as Ryan realizes that he has made a terrible mistake in his creation and seals the place off so that it doesn't spread and the rest of the world won't fall to it. Then we (the player) show up as per command. Ryan realizes that we're his offspring and decides to impose on us the fact that he chose Rapture - to become Rapture - and that we (the player and as a species) should have free choice over our actions but with some limits. His death being both to fall as he saw Rapture falling and to serve as shock value twords us (the player) realizing how bad the Rapture concept and results truly are.

Fire Mage
09-04-2007, 10:33 PM
AnimeCommander:

He DID fear the outside world getting to Rapture. He considered everyone on the outside world to be "parasites."

That's the whole reason he created Rapture, to get away from the outside world.

AnimeCommander
09-05-2007, 10:48 AM
AnimeCommander:

He DID fear the outside world getting to Rapture. He considered everyone on the outside world to be "parasites."

That's the whole reason he created Rapture, to get away from the outside world.
To him "parasites" were those who do not work for themselves and take from other's work. And he created Rapture to get away from the limits of the outside world. And until things got out of hand, I think he didn't care who came to Rapture just as long as they contributed.

naptownsteeler
09-05-2007, 04:42 PM
call maury povich!

so that means that bed ridden corpse beyond the stripper pole was mom?
that's very funny never thought of that.

Ceilō
09-06-2007, 04:03 PM
He let you kill him because he knew his blood will kill you...

I Rickz I
09-13-2007, 03:43 PM
Nice thread,whoever said this story was bad/boring....this game has one of the greatest stories ever!!!A deep plot that simply completing the story wont tell you all the little nitty gritty bits.

Rogertheshruber
09-14-2007, 03:06 AM
also if you get the "good" ending, it shows that the little sisters grow up and then it shows u seemingly on ur death bed, with their hands on yours. Their hands look fairly young, but yours looks very old...another allusion to the accelerated growth perhaps?

LukeP91
09-15-2007, 05:03 PM
Luke........ he's your father :rolleyes:

no he's not...:p

Cosmo_Kramer
09-19-2007, 04:25 PM
I think Ryan was trying to get you to choose to not kill him, especially when he said "A man chooses, a slave obeys."

Bingo, I think this is it right here. He was probably attempting to break the mind control somehow, (after all we don't see how Tenenbaum does it later), and either persuade you not to kill him, or to make sure you're aware of what you are and attempt to change it.

Guess his Plan B worked out.

III Vesper III
09-21-2007, 02:03 PM
Wow, i learned so much from reading this thread lol.

austin rules
09-22-2007, 01:04 AM
You'll notice that the images you keep getting flashbacks of make an appearance in a room before you meet Ryan. And as Dave said, they are implanted memories of a sort.

And for those who are interested, Jack is about 12-13 years old despite looking like an adult.

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Jack


wow im 14 yrs old and i would be shitting my pants if i were down in rapture with all those splicers chasing me