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View Full Version : Former Rare composer:"Microsoft ruined Rare"


lid
07-07-2012, 05:47 AM
Direct full quote from Grant Kirkhope

"I think Rare have completely fucked themselves. And - it isn't their fault; it's Microsoft's fault. They have completely ruined that company, and it makes me cry every day of my life."





http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/comments/former-rare-composer-grant-kirkhope-says-microsoft-completely-ruined-rare

DragonsGoMOO
07-07-2012, 06:11 AM
Shit happens.

TVthePunisher
07-07-2012, 08:32 AM
I haven't played much Rare games since their partnership with Nintendo ended. Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts + Viva Pinata..that's it. And I personally feel the games are crap compared to Donkey Kong, the original Banjo-Kazooies, Conker...all the good shit that USED to come out when partnered with Nintendo.

Wish they had never parted ways, otherwise there'd probably be more good Wii games than the first party titles...

Gackt
07-07-2012, 12:39 PM
Yeah...fuckin microsoft. Instead of getting stuff like Donkey Kong Country, Goldeneye, PD, Killer Instinct from them, we get Kinect sports, and shitty avatar garbage.

TheRedComet
07-07-2012, 12:57 PM
Unfortunately I can't disagree with this. The only good things RARE has done since being acquired by MS are porting Banjo-Kazooie and Perfect Dark to the 360. PDZ was trash, the demo for Kameo was so unimpressive I forgot the game even existed until this very second and I never gave Nuts and Bolts a chance since it looks completely unrelated with the N64 BKs. Yep, RARE is pretty much ruined.

EliTzuR
07-07-2012, 01:10 PM
Kinect Sports was a good game. I do enjoy playing it from time to time.

Gackt
07-07-2012, 01:13 PM
Kinect Sports was a good game. I do enjoy playing it from time to time.

The handful of people who actually enjoy kinect don't matter.

EliTzuR
07-07-2012, 01:23 PM
The handful of people who actually enjoy kinect don't matter.

Ohh ouch. Hah, whatever.

firebix
07-07-2012, 01:23 PM
There's another link on that site to an article (here (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-08-who-killed-rare)) that other former Rare staff say that yes Microsoft did ruin Rare.

BlamelessSoul
07-07-2012, 05:03 PM
personally i loved all the viva pinata's except part animal i sure wish they would make another one

CHIRUNO99
07-07-2012, 05:18 PM
It's the things like this which makes me hate Microsoft. Rare had so many good games, and now they barely make games.

Ayx
07-07-2012, 05:25 PM
People need to chill with the RARE bandwagon. Honestly, they were never anything out of the ordinary other than some creativity. Twisted Pixel are my developers in the creativity department for this gen.

RARE took advantage and made games where half the developers didn't want to because Cartages were out of style and CDs were in despite the stupid loading times. They got a lucky hit with Goldeneye and launched from there, they weren't anything big to begin with, just a big(ger) developer in the N64 because no one wanted to develop for that console anyways, just lazy ports most of the time.

DeepInfern0
07-07-2012, 05:29 PM
From as far as I've heard, Rare have been ruined by MS. Rare are now making Kinect games for them whereas before (when they had a partnership with Nintendo) they were making games like GoldenEye, Perfect Dark etc... Now I've played a few of their games and I never grew up playing their games but it is a shame of how far they've fallen. I pray for them to go back to where they were before, but MS won't let them.

jules the great
07-07-2012, 06:47 PM
The handful of people who actually enjoy kinect don't matter.
Damn, LOL. That was brutal.

Gackt
07-07-2012, 07:40 PM
People need to chill with the RARE bandwagon. Honestly, they were never anything out of the ordinary



Donkey Kong Country, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, KILLER INSTINCT were all pretty fantastic games. So for them to go from those, to Kinect games and designing stupid ass avatar crap is pretty disappointing.

TyrannoSpank
07-07-2012, 07:58 PM
Iuno if it has anything to really do with it.

But Conkers Bad Fur Day was my fav N64 game.


Totally hated it on Xbox :x.

I think a remake today on 360 couod be pretty awesome tho. As i imagine anyway.

CONKER1182
07-07-2012, 08:54 PM
Some of why Rare went to Microsoft is Nintendos fault to part of it. :(

CHIRUNO99
07-07-2012, 08:55 PM
None of this would have happened if the Dreamcast 2 came out

EliTzuR
07-07-2012, 09:19 PM
You may think Rare are bad, but not as bad as EA, they are terrible.

InsulinShaman
07-07-2012, 09:24 PM
Damn it Microsoft making rare make shitty kinect games...

iBuzz7S
07-07-2012, 09:27 PM
You may think Rare are bad, but not as bad as EA, they are terrible.
Who said Rare are bad? Their work during the N64 days is praised because people were talking about them. People were playing their games. They made games that a lot of people enjoyed. Nowadays, not many people know 'em.

I blame Microsoft. Don't care about licenses or any other bullshit between Rare and Nintendo. Microsoft is the sole reason why Rare died.

punker
07-07-2012, 09:47 PM
Perfect Dark Zero being awful compared to the original is hardly Microsoft's fault. It isn't like Microsoft went into the Rare offices and said, "hey, remember that awesome game you made? Can you make a sequel, but make sure it stinks? Thanks." Same with Kameo, which was ok, but nothing fabulous. Maybe what happened is Microsoft bought them, realized they couldn't develop anything good for this generation of systems so decided to give them some easier projects... such as the Viva Pinata and Kinect Sports series, which as has already been said, are pretty fun. So good for Rare.

But yeah, nothing so far has compared to their older stuff like Donkey Kong Country, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. But not Killer Instinct... that game sucked a bag of dicks when it came out in 1994, and I'd bet it hasn't aged well.

Gackt
07-07-2012, 09:49 PM
Perfect Dark Zero being awful compared to the original is hardly Microsoft's fault. It isn't like Microsoft went into the Rare offices and said, "hey, remember that awesome game you made? Can you make a sequel, but make sure it stinks? Thanks." Same with Kameo, which was ok, but nothing fabulous. Maybe what happened is Microsoft bought them, realized they couldn't develop anything good for this generation of systems so decided to give them some easier projects... such as the Viva Pinata and Kinect Sports series, which as has already been said, are pretty fun. So good for Rare.

But yeah, nothing so far has compared to their older stuff like Donkey Kong Country, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. But not Killer Instinct... that game sucked a bag of dicks when it came out in 1994, and I'd bet it hasn't aged well.

It sucked because you either didn't like it or you were not good at it?
Killer Instinct and KI:Gold were both very solid fighters.

punker
07-07-2012, 09:57 PM
Eh, I couldn't stand it. Thought it was total trash. But if others like it, to each their own I guess.

StillTIPPIN187
07-07-2012, 10:05 PM
Yeah.. Microsoft blows with their lame games.. All they care about is pew pew pew. Halo and Forza are the only good ones MS has.

Akuza
07-07-2012, 10:38 PM
Direct full quote from Grant Kirkhope

"I think Rare have completely fucked themselves. And - it isn't their fault; it's Microsoft's fault. They have completely ruined that company, and it makes me cry every day of my life."





http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/comments/former-rare-composer-grant-kirkhope-says-microsoft-completely-ruined-rare


Tell us something we didn't know... :confused:

Ehrenfried
07-07-2012, 11:11 PM
That's how the world turns...
Nothing new, big companies buy off 'little' developers which made some great games
just to let them develop crap or tear them apart to make them one of their own.
EA/MS/Sony, they all are the same.

Anyone remembers "Looking Glass"? That's a sad story...

The Rabbit Suit
07-07-2012, 11:31 PM
This guy needs to get his ass to Valve. They're hiring for Sound Production and he was just let go since the company he worked for went under.

lid
07-08-2012, 12:08 AM
Unfortunately I can't disagree with this. The only good things RARE has done since being acquired by MS are porting Banjo-Kazooie and Perfect Dark to the 360. PDZ was trash, the demo for Kameo was so unimpressive I forgot the game even existed until this very second and I never gave Nuts and Bolts a chance since it looks completely unrelated with the N64 BKs. Yep, RARE is pretty much ruined.

they didnt even port banjo kazooie/tooie and perfect dark that was 4j studios. :[

TheRedComet
07-08-2012, 01:59 PM
they didnt even port banjo kazooie/tooie and perfect dark that was 4j studios. :[

Damn, you're right. I totally forgot about that. Well at least RARE made the games to later get ported? :confused:

masterq60
07-08-2012, 04:49 PM
One good thing about BK: Nuts and Bolts is you can finally use stop n' swop without hacking or whatever...

Crypt
07-08-2012, 07:39 PM
Rare does indeed suck now

Felonious Monk
07-09-2012, 06:30 AM
Guys.

Rare ruined Rare.

Remember, it's not like Nintendo solely handed them over. The Stamper brothers sold their controlling interests in Rare specifically to Microsoft and Nintendo followed suit because that was the deal.

Also, let's talk incestuous behavior. Rare is/was an extremely secluded company. Their company culture is entirely backward. Microsoft may influence in key ways, but it's up to Rare to take any changes kicking and screaming or to swallow that pill whole.

It's their lack of spine and absolute fear of promotion that's led to their downfall. It's no way to run a company, so it's only a matter of time.

Ehrenfried
07-09-2012, 06:47 AM
You forgot one thing Mr. Monk.

MS pays the guys@Rare, so they have to do what MS tells them.
And if the suits@MS tell the guys@Rare to develop a "DDCG" (dumbed-down crowdpleaser game) they have to do it.

Felonious Monk
07-09-2012, 07:41 AM
You forgot one thing Mr. Monk.

MS pays the guys@Rare, so they have to do what MS tells them.
And if the suits@MS tell the guys@Rare to develop a "DDCG" (dumbed-down crowdpleaser game) they have to do it.

Keep in mind that Rare selling all controlling shares out to Microsoft is kind of the point behind my comment.

It actually has nothing to do with "who tells who what to do" after the fact.

Beyond that, no. A developer can make a deal with the devil in order to keep the publisher happy while simultaneously doing the kind of work that keeps them happy.

It was only after several high-profile failures that Rare was re-structured for your so-called DDCGs. Those failures weren't the fault of Microsoft beyond so far as trusting Rare to let those discs go gold and to the master press. It's Rare's fault alone.

FFFreak1129
07-09-2012, 12:45 PM
I think most gamers would agree with that. I loved Rare's games on the N64. Alot of classics. What have they done on MS' console? Kameo was ok, Viva Pinata was ok but Banjo-Kazooie N+b was really disappointing. And I don't particularly care about kinect or avatar stuff.

Would have been cool if they would have stayed with Nintendo. Who knows there might be more classic must play games out there now. Oh well.

Gackt
07-09-2012, 01:01 PM
They wouldn't be able to make the great games I liked from them in the past anyway, pretty sure those people don't even work for RARE anymore.

Rapture639
08-09-2012, 08:46 PM
I just want a new Killer Instinct game. Is that too much to ask? Oh and that it NOT be a kinect game please!

Sarcastro
08-09-2012, 08:50 PM
This wasn't exactly a news flash. Rare have been churning out disappointments since Microsoft took over.

The best thing MS can do now, is license out the properties like Banjo, Perfect Dark and Conker to developers that know what to do with it and can make a great game. Perfect Dark game developed by Epic games, anyone?

Sarcastro
08-09-2012, 08:54 PM
Keep in mind that Rare selling all controlling shares out to Microsoft is kind of the point behind my comment.

It actually has nothing to do with "who tells who what to do" after the fact.

Beyond that, no. A developer can make a deal with the devil in order to keep the publisher happy while simultaneously doing the kind of work that keeps them happy.

It was only after several high-profile failures that Rare was re-structured for your so-called DDCGs. Those failures weren't the fault of Microsoft beyond so far as trusting Rare to let those discs go gold and to the master press. It's Rare's fault alone.

I think it's a double edged sword. Microsoft, as the publisher still imposes deadlines on the developers that are required to be met for monetary payouts.

Often times, crappy games are a result of the developer doing everything in their power to meet those deadlines and delivering a product that is beneath their expectations and the consumers.

It's a vicious cycle. Yes, Rare developed the games. But, it's not as if they worked on the same kind of timeline that a Valve or Blizzard game receives.

SmarmySmurf
08-09-2012, 09:48 PM
MS let Rare experiment and they produced absolutely nothing that commercially justified their purchase price or their operating budget. I love every Rare game this gen, and I'm dying for Banjo 3 and Kameo 2, but "old Rare" was a model of inefficiency.

Disgruntled former employees whose jobs were outsourced don't make for the most informed sources, either. I love his creative efforts--I do, Rare has always had pretty great music--but wtf does Kirkhope (or any sound guy/composer) know about the business side of running a company like MS? Or even Rare?

Maybe with the right management (old) Rare could be saved from themselves while retaining their identity, but I think it's disingenuous and unfair to fault MS for not being that particular management. They wanted to pay billions to get Nintendo, Nintendo wasn't for sale, so they bought Nintendo Jr. The Stampers knew this, even if folks like Kirkhope didn't. Nintendo was really the ones that knew how to handle them, but even then their work was declining under Nintendo too. (This is coming from a fan of both DK64 and Star Fox Adventures)

Rare is lucky to exist "in name only" pushing forward commercial successes like Kinect Sports (which isn't a bad game by any measure) instead of being in the mess Silicon Knights and other washed up studios are in. How many studios shut down this gen entirely? It might not be old Rare, but Rare's still alive at least, and it even retains some old employees.

And am I the only one holding out hope that at least one of those Rare next gen rumors will pan out? It would be nice if MS could turn them around still, but even if they can't...

Shit happens.

Kunduz
08-09-2012, 10:23 PM
I miss the good ol' Rare

WalterWhite
08-10-2012, 02:11 AM
Damn, LOL. That was brutal.

Haha, it wasn't brutal enough. Fuck that thing forever. You know how people say things like, "I wouldn't take a Kinect if someone gave it to me for free?" Or something like, "You couldn't pay me to use a Kinect." Well I mean it, atleast the former. I actually would play it for a paycheck.

JeremyVersion1
08-10-2012, 03:40 AM
Guys.

Rare ruined Rare.

Remember, it's not like Nintendo solely handed them over. The Stamper brothers sold their controlling interests in Rare specifically to Microsoft and Nintendo followed suit because that was the deal.

Also, let's talk incestuous behavior. Rare is/was an extremely secluded company. Their company culture is entirely backward. Microsoft may influence in key ways, but it's up to Rare to take any changes kicking and screaming or to swallow that pill whole.

It's their lack of spine and absolute fear of promotion that's led to their downfall. It's no way to run a company, so it's only a matter of time.

100% Agree with this.

You forgot one thing Mr. Monk.

MS pays the guys@Rare, so they have to do what MS tells them.
And if the suits@MS tell the guys@Rare to develop a "DDCG" (dumbed-down crowdpleaser game) they have to do it.

So what if that's what they have to make, if they would put the polish and care into the game as they did past games it would turn out great. Instead Rare puts out shit, because they don't care enough to put their hearts into anything.

Rare screwed Rare, not Microsoft, not Nintendo. They only have themselves to blame for putting out shit.

wariowarrior
08-11-2012, 05:59 PM
Totally agree it was Rare that ruined themselves. They made a terrible judgement call and have been paying for it for the last decade. At times it has saddened me at the dramatic fall from grace but I am thankful for the classics that were made and are still able to be played.

TheLineOfSight
08-11-2012, 08:27 PM
Rare doesn't care.

l.maciver
08-11-2012, 08:43 PM
Banjo kazooie: nuts and bolts, viva pinata and trouble in paradise where nice game, dont have a kinect so havnt played anything after them 3 from rare.

dwayne_hicks
08-11-2012, 08:56 PM
Banjo kazooie: nuts and bolts, viva pinata and trouble in paradise where nice game, dont have a kinect so havnt played anything after them 3 from rare.

They may be considered decent games, but they all pale in comparison to some of Rare's earlier efforts.

The original Banjo Kazooie, Banjoe Tooie, Conker, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and Donkey Kong 64 easily surpass them.

AltruismIsDead
08-12-2012, 10:20 PM
After Battletoads Rare went down hill. :p

Forget releasing another KI, or (good) Perfect Dark, just bring back Battletoads!

SmarmySmurf
08-14-2012, 09:24 PM
They may be considered decent games, but they all pale in comparison to some of Rare's earlier efforts.

The original Banjo Kazooie, Banjoe Tooie, Conker, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and Donkey Kong 64 easily surpass them.
Opinions. I'll take Kameo and KS over all of those.

Walecs360
08-15-2012, 02:52 PM
What noone said, is that Rare staff now is not the same as the one during the Nintendo 64 golden (eye) era. That's why they suck. Stamper bros., Chris Seavor, Grant Kirkhope, they all left.

Opinions. I'll take Kameo and KS over all of those.
Kinect Sports better than Perfect Dark, Banjo-Kazooie, Conker and Goldeneye? WHAT? The best thing of Kinect Sports is way worse than the worst thing of one of the games above. And at least, none of them was a copy of a Nintendo game (except maybe Banjo-Kazooie which is similar to Mario 64, but similar, not identical).

Matt36
08-15-2012, 10:34 PM
I wouldn't say they are ruined. I love Kameo & Viva Pinata. Just continues on from me enjoying Star fox on GC & Conkers on the XBOX. And the obvious ones prior to that.

Snowed
08-16-2012, 12:33 AM
Microsoft is not at fault here. All of Rare's good developers left a very long time ago, even before the merger. Conker 64 wasn't even a good game - it was a novelty that was fresh for its time.

Microsoft bought them in the hope that they would be good. They made 4 games. Kameo was a good game but it had a bad reception, PDZ was pretty bad (even for a launch title), I didn't play the other two. Part of the problem was probably the launch deadline (anyone who thinks Rare thought those games were done is an idiot, they obviously weren't - Kameo even had co-op added later via patch because it wasn't ready at launch). But really, the core of both of those games were not good and that is the problem.

Rare died long ago. As of now it's just an empty shell probably with almost no one from the old team working there. They will NEVER be good again. Honestly, they'd probably still be bad even if they had their old team. Their games are good for their time, but if any of that stuff was released today it would be horrible. Hell, most of it appeals to pre-teens.

I'm glad they're gone. They're no longer needed.

ConfederateSuga
08-16-2012, 12:58 AM
The handful of people who actually enjoy kinect don't matter.

That's a dick comment with no real substance. Microsoft aren't here to cater to all the diehards anymore. They're leading in sales, both consoles and games, and have no real need to just appeal to their hardcore audience anymore. It Nintendo knew what the fuck they were doing, they'd be begging more third-party devs to develop on their systems, instead of basing the majority of their market on their own games. Kinect was inevitable. It will probably be standard next gen, and the gen after that it may even be built-in and utilized in virtually every game. I prefer a standard controller, but the success of the Wii and the Kinect proves that there 'is' a market out there who's tired of the controller-in-hand/joystick experience. We've been playing with joysticks/controllers for 30+ years....an evolution in gaming is bound to happen, and we're witnessing the birth of that with these new technologies like motion control, 6-axis and "you are the controller"/Kinect. Back in the early 90s, we were hearing about capabilities of complete virtual reality games, where you played with your mind and your eyes were the TV. Where you would eventually feel the motions your character did, ie; pain, exhaustion, tiredness. When we stop and say "Ok, this is good enough" like a lot of us have with the controller-in-hand custom, then innovation is set back. I'm completely open to whatever the next few generations of gaming will bring us. If I have to play Halo 12 with my feet, I'll fuckin' do it!

Walecs360
08-16-2012, 09:47 AM
Conker 64 wasn't even a good game
What? I love that game. It's my second top favourite game of all time (the first obviously being the one in the picture).

iiOFWGKTA x
08-16-2012, 02:51 PM
Guys check out their website, it's just depressing what they've become http://rare.net/

As a huge Banjo fan, I think I'm starting to accept the fact that there will never be a Banjo Threeie

Walecs360
08-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Guys check out their website, it's just depressing what they've become http://rare.net/

As a huge Banjo fan, I think I'm starting to accept the fact that there will never be a Banjo Threeie
As an obsessed Banjo fan like you, I accepted that a lot of time ago. :(

Scrubber
08-16-2012, 07:15 PM
I want Banjo-Threeie.

I hate Rare/Microsoft.

WolfmanStarrk
08-16-2012, 09:23 PM
Yeah, a shame that there will probably never be a Banjo-Threeie unless you count Nuts and Bolts which the majority doesn't. I've been holding out for the aforementioned title for 10+ years now... Ahhh how I miss the old Rare and their awesome, awesome platformer games, my childhood was spent playing Donkey Kong Country and Banjo-Kazooie.

Requiescat in pace Rareware.

SmarmySmurf
08-16-2012, 11:48 PM
Kinect Sports better than Perfect Dark, Banjo-Kazooie, Conker and Goldeneye? WHAT? The best thing of Kinect Sports is way worse than the worst thing of one of the games above. And at least, none of them was a copy of a Nintendo game (except maybe Banjo-Kazooie which is similar to Mario 64, but similar, not identical).
More opinions. And sorry, but I didn't use the word "better" at all. I said I'll take one over the other. Even back in the day I would take Doom or Medal of Honor over Rare's shooters, and every Rare platformer, though good, has paled in comparison to SM64. Nothing Nintendo itself has done since has managed to match it either IMO, so don't get salty, I don't hate Rare. I see them as not being as good as you/some feel they were, or as bad as you/some feel they are. Like I said, opinions. I want a new Blinx or Voodoo Vince as much as I want a new Conker or BK. Nostalgia isn't a factor for me (in general).

AltruismIsDead
08-17-2012, 01:20 AM
Microsoft is not at fault here. All of Rare's good developers left a very long time ago, even before the merger. Conker 64 wasn't even a good game - it was a novelty that was fresh for its time.

Microsoft bought them in the hope that they would be good. They made 4 games. Kameo was a good game but it had a bad reception, PDZ was pretty bad (even for a launch title), I didn't play the other two. Part of the problem was probably the launch deadline (anyone who thinks Rare thought those games were done is an idiot, they obviously weren't - Kameo even had co-op added later via patch because it wasn't ready at launch). But really, the core of both of those games were not good and that is the problem.

Rare died long ago. As of now it's just an empty shell probably with almost no one from the old team working there. They will NEVER be good again. Honestly, they'd probably still be bad even if they had their old team. Their games are good for their time, but if any of that stuff was released today it would be horrible. Hell, most of it appeals to pre-teens.

I'm glad they're gone. They're no longer needed.

? Not understanding what you mean by they made 4 games? You mean under Nintendos guidance? Because Rare made a ton of games...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_developed_by_Rare

Scrubber
08-17-2012, 08:33 AM
Yeah, a shame that there will probably never be a Banjo-Threeie unless you count Nuts and Bolts which the majority doesn't. I've been holding out for the aforementioned title for 10+ years now... Ahhh how I miss the old Rare and their awesome, awesome platformer games, my childhood was spent playing Donkey Kong Country and Banjo-Kazooie.

Requiescat in pace Rareware.

Thing is, we WOULD have seen Banjo-Threeie on the GameCube if they werent purchased by MS. Could well be upto Sixie on the WiiU

masterq60
08-17-2012, 04:50 PM
Probably the closest thing we ever got to a third banjo-kazooie was Grunty's Revenge.

And how much I would like to see a Banjo-Threeie, Microsoft would somehow have to put in a whole new element like Nuts n Bolts and mess everything up again

Scrubber
08-17-2012, 09:37 PM
Probably the closest thing we ever got to a third banjo-kazooie was Grunty's Revenge.

And how much I would like to see a Banjo-Threeie, Microsoft would somehow have to put in a whole new element like Nuts n Bolts and mess everything up again

I've always wanted to play this game but i have never owned a handheld since the original gameboy.

jeffrythegreat
08-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Probably the closest thing we ever got to a third banjo-kazooie was Grunty's Revenge.

And how much I would like to see a Banjo-Threeie, Microsoft would somehow have to put in a whole new element like Nuts n Bolts and mess everything up again

Always meant to get Grunty's Revenge