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View Full Version : CTF as we know it in Halo has been changed.


Natetendo83
10-19-2012, 03:25 PM
Not sure how many have heard about the "changes" to CTF in Halo 4. I for one am a bit skeptical and I'll go into the mode with that skepticism but none the less I'll actually try the mode before I make a final judgement.

Here's the changes that have people talking:

- Wield a pistol while carrying the flag.
- Movement speed unaffected while carrying the flag.
- Flag carrier has a Waypoint over their heads for both teams, thus "making them the objective" as 343 puts it.
- Ability to drop the flag is now gone.
- Automatically pick up the flag when you touch it.

The first two are pretty cool, but the last three are the changes that concern me at this point.

StolenPaper18
10-19-2012, 03:44 PM
Kind of old news.

The only change I like is that movement speed is unaffected. Everything else seems bad, imo. Especially the waypoint over the head thing. Have to wait and see I guess, maybe it works out alright.

RBmaster9345
10-19-2012, 03:49 PM
Yeah I dont like the Waypoint idea. But the forced carry is ok. As they put it, "you are now committed to that role". Forcing new teamwork instead of one dude picking it up all the time.

DarkReign2021
10-19-2012, 05:24 PM
I'm iffy about the waypoint thing, but I don't think it's really a big deal. It makes him more accessible as a target, but this is balanced pretty well by the ability to fire a weapon and move at regular speed, so it's not really a game breaker. As for not dropping it, myself personally being one of those people that gets irritated as shit hearing the announcer repeat "Flag Captured, Flag Dropped, Flag Captured, Flag Dropped" two million times, I'm definitely happy for this addition. I think they should give the ability for players to swap flags with other players (for that matter, I think it should be the same way with weapons like they do in the Campaign.)

Hishoa
10-19-2012, 05:51 PM
While I don't prefer not being able to put the flag down, I really dislike the auto-pick up, something I think you forgot to mention in your OP.

Natetendo83
10-19-2012, 06:05 PM
While I don't prefer not being able to put the flag down, I really dislike the auto-pick up, something I think you forgot to mention in your OP.
Oh yea, I'll go back and add that.

As for the flag drop bit to reduce flag juggling, I think that the increased movement speed was the best way to remove the need for juggling IMO. Not much point in juggling the flag when you run just as fast with or without it :)

Gackt
10-22-2012, 06:08 PM
I like the new changes.

Hishoa
10-22-2012, 06:45 PM
I don't think the changes to CTF will fix a thing. While 343i says being unable to drop the flag will inspire teamwork and the like, I find it highly unlikely. Even in Reach, when you could pick up the flag nilly-willy people were still hesitant to go for it in favor or greifing and stat-padding. Why would they begin to do so now? 343i has already given flag carriers 100% speed so there'd be no need to "juggle" the flag, satisfying all those who were legitimately annoyed with the announcer. And I have no idea why they'd enable auto-pick up. Someone could be rushing in with Rockets to help their teammate running the flag home-- bam, flag carrier dies and Rocket user auto-picks up flag mistakingly. Now unable to switch weapons because of forced pick-up, they die and the rockets are left to the enemy team. Bullshit.

If anything, the new CTF mechanics rules out many viable strategies. I remember dropping the flag into the mancannon in Valhalla for my teammates to pick up mid-map. I remember tossing the flag out of the roof in Beaver Creek in Halo 2, and the same in Hemorrhage and Coagulation. No longer are CTF stratagems intricate and well-thought out, but instead a linear path of A to B.

But ultimately, why are you able to pass the Oddball but not the flag? The reasoning makes no sense; why not commit the Oddball carrier to the task like they've done with the Flag carrier?

I remember watching a youtube video by someone who had an idea on how CTF could be fixed for Halo 4 before its release. His idea, IIRC, was to have each CTF game start off with a 5-7 minute gametime (depending on the size and "difficulty" of the map) and have it increase in 2-3 minute increments with each flag scored. This would encourage you to play the objective to keep the game going, forcing stat-padders to stray from their comfort zone and siege the other side of the map lest they want to play with only 5 minutes to stat boost.

Eski Boi
10-22-2012, 08:00 PM
Don't knock it till you've tried it.

McMan
10-22-2012, 08:27 PM
Well, if anything now we don't have to listen to someone drop and pick-up the flag thus causing the announcer to have a seizure.

Hishoa
10-22-2012, 08:48 PM
Don't knock it till you've tried it.

You'd have a point if we haven't seen this new CTF in action. Unfortunately we have, given all the gameplay videos. I haven't tried the new Fable: The Journey game, but I already know I would down-right hate it for how on-rails it is and the fact that I'd have to have Kinect to play it (gameplay videos were the nail in the coffin). I loved the previous reiterations of the game, yet hate this one for how different and radical it is. The same can be said for many others who've seen gameplay videos of this new CTF that 343i's engineered.

The community did not ask for auto-pickup. The community did not ask for the flag to be undroppable. The community did not ask for a waypoint above their head. The community's complaints, to my knowledge, were a solution for the flag-juggling and parties who did not play the objective. And they fixed that (the second one to a lesser extent), of course, but added all these other drawbacks that are quite questionable and will, IMO, become a detriment to the gametype.

xXmyxxmastaXx
10-22-2012, 09:19 PM
ill just go for kills in ctf then

BiggD
10-22-2012, 09:50 PM
I'll keep my post brief.

I'm 60/40 on the waypoint. 60% being for it.
No dropping the flag AND armed with a 'Flagnum' - I like that
CTF as it's own game type? I love that.

Gackt
10-22-2012, 10:30 PM
You'd have a point if we haven't seen this new CTF in action. Unfortunately we have, given all the gameplay videos. I haven't tried the new Fable: The Journey game, but I already know I would down-right hate it for how on-rails it is and the fact that I'd have to have Kinect to play it (gameplay videos were the nail in the coffin). I loved the previous reiterations of the game, yet hate this one for how different and radical it is. The same can be said for many others who've seen gameplay videos of this new CTF that 343i's engineered.

The community did not ask for auto-pickup. The community did not ask for the flag to be undroppable. The community did not ask for a waypoint above their head. The community's complaints, to my knowledge, were a solution for the flag-juggling and parties who did not play the objective. And they fixed that (the second one to a lesser extent), of course, but added all these other drawbacks that are quite questionable and will, IMO, become a detriment to the gametype.

The forum communities are the minority of the playerbase...and oddly enough the worst part of said games players. Listening to what forum whiners demand is never a good idea. Besides...they can change things if it doesn't work out for the better once the game is out and people are playing it.

The Bum-Mobile
10-22-2012, 11:39 PM
I don't like any of that...

It's Halo, I'm obligated to get it. But my criticism will be unwavering. And harsh if need be.

Hishoa
10-23-2012, 12:53 AM
Besides...they can change things if it doesn't work out for the better once the game is out and people are playing it.

While it's possible for this to happen, I believe the chance they will is slim. It's been a big change that apparently everyone at 343i are standing behind and have been well-documented in their commentary and vidocs.

I'll keep my post brief.

I'm 60/40 on the waypoint. 60% being for it.
No dropping the flag AND armed with a 'Flagnum' - I like that
CTF as it's own game type? I love that.

Gametype, or playlist? A little confused here. If playlist, I fully agree. :Bounce: What's your thoughts about the auto-pickup?

BiggD
10-23-2012, 01:13 AM
Gametype, or playlist? A little confused here. If playlist, I fully agree. :Bounce: What's your thoughts about the auto-pickup?

Wow...I usually go back and edit my posts when I've made a mistake, guess I missed that one, but yes, Playlist :p

Hmm, lets talk about the auto-pick up. I partially understand why 343i would leave this feature in the game. But after considering it, I don't think it's that good of an idea. I kinda like it, but it's not the best feature. Like you said...what if someone who is covering the Flag Carrier with a Power-Weapon i.e. Rockets, Scattershot, Sword; accidentally and unintentionally auto-pickup the flag when the carrier has died near them? This eliminates the purpose of team-coverage by that said teammate(s) with the Power-Weapon(s). WTF!

This is how I could see it, maybe once the clock reaches 1:00, THEN auto-pickup is enabled for good. This would make sense because while the clock reaches 0:00, everything gets hectic (guns blazin', grenades are being lobbed across the maps, people are driving their vehicles as if they are intoxicated for the first time) and for those who take objective game-types seriously and want to score the most amount of points, clicking/holding a button to pick up the flag when it may be in the middle of a battlefield with dead bodies can be problematic, as the player might pick up a weapon accidentally and **** up their chance to score :p

^ I have a completely terrible run-on sentence there, but hopefully you understand what I meant :)

Hishoa
10-23-2012, 01:17 AM
This is how I could see it, maybe once the clock reaches 1:00, THEN auto-pickup is enabled for good. This would make sense because while the clock reaches 0:00, everything gets hectic (guns blazin', grenades are being lobbed across the maps, people are driving their vehicles as if they are intoxicated for the first time) and for those who take objective game-types seriously and want to score the most amount of points, clicking/holding a button to pick up the flag when it may be in the middle of a battlefield with dead bodies can be problematic, as the player might pick up a weapon accidentally and **** up their chance to score :p

^ I have a completely terrible run-on sentence there, but hopefully you understand what I meant :)

It makes sense, don't worry. I agree that a time limit would be reasonable. ;) Personally though, the only main "obstacle" I imagine this would solve is those silly kids who park mongooses or warthogs ontop of the flag so you'd mistakenly get in the vehicle instead of pulling the objective. But even then, a well-placed grenade would fix that issue instead of all the potential issues of auto-pickup.

BiggD
10-23-2012, 01:27 AM
It makes sense, don't worry. I agree that a time limit would be reasonable. ;) Personally though, the only main "obstacle" I imagine this would solve is those silly kids who park mongooses or warthogs ontop of the flag so you'd mistakenly get in the vehicle instead of pulling the objective. But even then, a well-placed grenade would fix that issue instead of all the potential issues of auto-pickup.

That makes sense, I have fallen victim to acting as a child would and parking my Warthog on top of the Flag to piss off the other team and ensure they mess up :p

Let me stray away from this real quick and ask; I haven't bothered playing Objective in Reach much, and I feel as though my memory fades when it comes to Halo 3 CTF. Was auto-pickup a feature in Halo 3 or Reach? I've played them for countless hours, I honestly just cannot remember for the life of me :confused:

Hishoa
10-23-2012, 01:30 AM
That makes sense, I have fallen victim to acting as a child would and parking my Warthog on top of the Flag to piss off the other team and ensure they mess up :p

I've tried to do it before too, don't get me wrong. Just, whenever I would, something would always go wrong; a teammate tosses a grenade to mess up my meticulously parked warthog or simply get in and drive off with it. :(

Let me stray away from this real quick and ask; I haven't bothered playing Objective in Reach much, and I feel as though my memory fades when it comes to Halo 3 CTF. Was auto-pickup a feature in Halo 3 or Reach? I've played them for countless hours, I honestly just cannot remember for the life of me :confused:

I believe Halo 4 is the first Halo title in which you auto-pick up the flag. IIRC, the only items you picked up automatically were skulls in Headhunter.

ps: Thank god they took out Headhunter. What a headache gametype!

BiggD
10-23-2012, 02:01 AM
I believe Halo 4 is the first Halo title in which you auto-pick up the flag. IIRC, the only items you picked up automatically were skulls in Headhunter.

ps: Thank god they took out Headhunter. What a headache gametype!

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of that gametype, especially when I got assassinated on my way to the drop-off zone while holding onto 10 Skulls -__-

Hmm, well I'll be damned that I don't remember that. I'm sure 343i know what they're doing though. Auto-pickup can either be catastrophic or extremely helpful to some. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Robobeast76
10-24-2012, 05:52 AM
I don't like the Waypoint element but some members of the community only have themselves to blame on this matter - look up HTO.

That said for a proper match it takes an element of stealth out of the game and that is sad. One of the best entries into the MLG Top 10 for Halo was one guy on CTF The Pit - didn't fire one shot and managed to sneak around the whole opponent team to get a flag cap.

Pistol - I am 110% ok with that

Flag Drop - You should be able to drop the flag. However does stop the Flag Stolen, Flag Dropped, Flag Stolen, Flag Dropped element

EngagedMetal7
10-24-2012, 06:38 AM
Halo one had waypoints. Halo one you automatically picked up the flag. Halo one had no speed change. Halo one was LEGENDARY!

Hishoa
10-24-2012, 07:45 AM
Halo one had waypoints. Halo one you automatically picked up the flag. Halo one had no speed change. Halo one was LEGENDARY!

I'd be fine with auto-pick up if you could then drop it. While it may hinder you in certain circumstances, it's not that much of a big deal overall.

Kaiyo
10-24-2012, 09:06 AM
I like all the changes especially non of the "Flag Dropped, Flag Taken, Flag Dropped"...

BiggD
10-24-2012, 12:09 PM
I like all the changes especially non of the "Flag Dropped, Flag Taken, Flag Dropped"...

LOL! This.

Darkshot87
10-26-2012, 03:37 AM
I like all the changes especially non of the "Flag Dropped, Flag Taken, Flag Dropped"...

thank god i don't have to hear that anymore

Hishoa
10-27-2012, 09:52 AM
Hard to argue against this, unfortunately.

Hey Waypoint,

In this post I will attempt to use my experiences and that of others to counter the design of the new Infinity CTF. My opinions will [of course] be incomplete until I have accumulated game time; however, I feel that my past experiences permit me to make this thread.

So let's delve in. According to The 9.5.12 bulletin (http://blogs.halowaypoint.com/Headlines/post/2012/09/05/The-Halo-Bulletin-9512.aspx) and the Infinity ViDoc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmOoGucyMNg), 343 redesigned Capture the Flag to increase the teamwork and pace of the game and redefine the 'flag carrier experience'. A game of Infinity CTF can be observed here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDxSH3Wcz4k) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDxSH3Wcz4k).

While I was initially optimistic and in support of the changes, I have come to realize why they not only seem illogical, but also counter-intuitive. Please allow me to express my thoughts below:

The Flag Carrier
The most important point that I will make is that there is no such thing as the role of flag carrier. Obviously somebody picks up the flag, but there's this misconception that it is the responsibility of the person who pulled the flag from the enemy team's base to score it. I believe that it is instead the team's responsibility, as the initial flag carrier will not always make it to his base in a competitive game. It requires a team to keep the enemy dead during a flag pull. It requires a teammate to pick up the flag when you die with it. It required a teammate to pass off the flag. It already required a team to score the flag. The notion that "one man can score the flag" is a false hyperbolic statement and is only ever observed in extreme cases where trueskill is to blame for an uneven match. Again, the cooperation of every member of your team was already needed to score the flag, so that is why I believe these changes only help to create the allusion of teamwork by removing all other alternatives.

Auto-Pickup and Dropping the Flag
The second point I will make is that auto-pickup compounded with the inability to drop the flag will frustrate players. 343 even said it themselves that it will lead to accidental pickups. So why was this passed on anyway? It is not difficult to press X, B, or RB to pick up a flag. If it is on a pile of weapons, the flag should take priority when a player looks at it to pick it up. This contradicts a fundamental element of Halo's sandbox gameplay by restricting player choice and forcing them into a role they could accidentally end up in. This creates a massive inconsistency within the sandbox and a player discovering this for the first time could potentially be put off from the gametype entirely. This will prove especially frustrating to somebody with a power weapon who happens to run over the flag. Compound the two aforementioned points with the fact that there's a giant 'kill me' sign over your head and you will see more and more players avoid the flag like the plague.

Stealth
Remember when your team distracted the enemy and you utilized Camo perfectly to sneak past the enemy team, pull the flag from behind their backs, and trick them into thinking you went one way while you quietly go the other direction? Now that there is no longer an option for this, flags wont be pulled until the entire team is dead. This was already commonly observed in competitive matches, but now it is being more heavily encouraged, which will lead to more kill farming and more spawn killing, as players will not pull flags until the entire enemy team is dead. Under a progression system that rewards these types of kills, we will once again be faced with the dilemma from Reach where it was more beneficial to a player's rank to drag out a game for 15 minutes than to powercap 3 flags in 5 minutes.

Movement
The Flag does not always need to be moved towards the objective. Sometimes it needs to be dropped to secure a power position. Other times, a dropped flag can be used to distract a team. Another tactic that influenced movement was passing the flag to a teammate on a ledge or across a gap. This allowed players to create shortcuts and deceive the enemy into thinking they have traveled a certain way.

Limiting these options limits strategies and makes the game more shallow. There is no longer a dynamic tactical difference between the teams, and these decisions further restrict the player to the design of the map geometry rather than allowing them to create their own paths. Not being able to pass the flag to a teammate is on the same level of detrimental to Halo as not being able to jump would, as they both restrict a player's ability to move around the map.

Flag Juggling
The last point I want to make is the one on flag juggling. It was an exploit, but it was a legitimate tactic. We all know that it created the dynamic of stealth vs speed. We also can all agree that "Flag Taken, Flag Dropped" was annoying. But you know what? The announcer talks even more in Halo 4! He tells you what you need to be doing and what you just did for almost everything. Those of you who were bothered by the excessive commentary will find no peace under the current system. This change makes absolutely no sense because the flag juggling issue was already solved in Reach with a cooldown on both the time you could pick it up and the frequency of the announcer.

Solution
There was only one change that needed to be made to CTF, and that was to make winning the game worth more than losing. There needed to be an incentive to play the objective and not farm for kills, and "Infinity CTF" as it stands does the exact opposite. Those of you asking us to treat it as a new gametype would have a point were it not for the facts that this gametype replaces traditional CTF AND the options for said CTF do not exist anywhere in the game.

Summary
In the end, these CTF changes were made to benefit a crowd of players that does not exist. They contradict each other, restrict the player, and are counter-intuitive. The majority of the objective players I know who've logged tens of thousands of competitive objective games for years are dissatisfied by this, not because they cannot 'adapt' or develop new strategies, but rather because these changes were unnecessary. They remove much more depth from the gametype than they add, and I fear that flags will simply stay on their stands due to the impossibility of scoring it with good teams.

I am very excited for Halo 4 (just got my gamefuel!) and I love what a great job 343 has done with the core gameplay and the new maps (Meltdown looks amazing). However, it pains me to admit that once the novelty of "being the badass carrier with a flagnum and flagsassination" wears off (which it will), players will complain, and CTF will fall flat on its face.

HellspawnRei
10-27-2012, 10:35 AM
I like the new changes,will wait and see them in action.

Coxy x360a
10-27-2012, 10:51 AM
On the bright side, there will be no...

flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag taken
flag dropped
flag captured

gig
10-27-2012, 12:03 PM
I personally hate the fact with the giant waypoint cause I always relied on stealth, also not being able to drop it is not going to work cause what if u wanna switch to like a rifle when your going against two people instead of using a scrubby pistol, this is what they should do:

1. Add a auto pickup for flags/bombs like toggle crouch
2. They should add a sounds where you can disable the "flag taken" or lower that certain sound

If they do this I think it would work out better then expected