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-   -   What's so wrong with swastikas in the emblem editor? (http://www.xboxachievements.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405724)

Hoborg 12-06-2012 06:01 PM

What's so wrong with swastikas in the emblem editor?
 
I really think this deserves to be brought up. I don't understand why there is this comparatively unfounded hysteria regarding Nazi Germany.

Why is it perfectly okay for someone to make an emblem of the Soviet union when they were responsible for over 90 million deaths (mostly civilians) in the 20th century. The Nazis never came close to that, they killed about 10 million.

Setting that aside for one second, let's compare the difference between the Shutzstaffel (SS) and the Nazi emblem. The SS emblem as you know is the typical two S letters put close together resembling lightning bolts. In contrast, the Nazi flag is not a military symbol, it's political representing Germany as a country in that particular period of history.

I'm a little bit out of the loop here but is the SS symbol banned too? If so why? The SS were a special branch of the military personally responsible for Hitler's safety and some of the most skilled fighters in the second world war. As far as I know, all other military symbols (though perhaps not as recognizable) are allowed in the editor. This is hypocritical. The SS and the Nazi's from a historic point of view has generated tons of profits for Activision because it is the very foundation of their product.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that they would ban users from creating such historic emblems when they are allowed to play members of this faction in the older games in multiplayer?

Further, the Nazi swastika is the only political flag that is banned in the editor. I've seen a bunch of Confederate flags, I don't think there is a policy for banning those which would be highly offensive to blacks.

Also I don't buy the argument that it is per se offensive. That is hypocritical. Just look at the facts; 10 million people killed, a majority Russians and Jews vs nearly 100 million people killed. People need to be more rational. The communist flags ought to be more offensive because those factions have done way more harm to humanity than the Nazi's could ever dream of.

Please discuss and keep it civil.

Rivercurse 12-06-2012 06:10 PM

Not Jewish, are you Hoborg?

Can see this thread descending fast.

Burnout x360a 12-06-2012 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoborg (Post 5444820)
Please discuss and keep it civil.

I'm going to be honest and say that's asking for a lot with this type of topic.

II Mortis II 12-06-2012 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoborg (Post 5444820)
Please discuss and keep it civil.

This is not a topic of civility.

The swastika originated as a symbol of peace in religions such as Buddhism. Swastika literally means "to be good". However, since then the symbol is more widely recognised as one of racism and mass genocide.

YorkusRex 12-06-2012 06:28 PM

There is a movement in several countries to outlaw the Red Star and Hammer and Sickle as symbols of Soviet occupation. Some countries have already enacted those laws.

I expect to see game-related bans of these symbols in the future.

Sanchezz4387 12-06-2012 06:33 PM

What the real question should be is why would anybody want an emblem of a swastika?

i don't agree with hysterical banning or reporting of penises or vaginas or gruesome pictures...BUT emblems of such historical tragedy and humanity at its lowest shouldn't be glorified in a game...world at war had them in as it was obviously a story about the german/russian battle and when they are used to depict history i never have objections, education is vital.....but why would a person like you or me have one as our player emblems other than to provoke reactions and cause anger?

i do see your point about the soviet symbol and i guess it could be a lack of education that people don't realize Stalin probably was more of a monster than Hitler, but when all is said and done the Nazis openly hated the Jews and nearly wiped them out of extinction and that is exactly why the symbol of the nazi party causes such controversy.

trymemf 12-06-2012 07:38 PM

Please just shut down the thread pls mod

trymemf 12-06-2012 07:40 PM

Goodbue whole x360 forums, alll it will do is just cause everyone to sit in this thread and discuss -.-

THE DEADLY DOG 12-06-2012 07:44 PM

This is a most interesting topic as I firmly agree with the OP on the basis of allowing a swastika in its most basic form.

Take for example the American flag. In countries now if you are to adorn, promote, or even possess an American flag it could be seen as the ultimate form of disrespect to your country, your government, or your own countrymen and women.

If you truly wanted to expand the argument look at what Mao did under the Chinese flag and the arguably hundreds of millions that died there.

My philosophy is this. If you take the original swastika without the coloring, and the unique design aspects added by the Nazis there is no harm/no foul in it. But to want to proudly adorn one because you believe it violates your own freedoms is foolish and disrespectful to the millions that died under it.

Nathan WV10 12-06-2012 07:54 PM

I can see why people have a problem with others having emblems and stuff like this but its just a picture. I don't see why any one would go out of their way to report the person or message them as you just allowed it to effect you for that short period of time. You should just look at it and be like oh go you and then look away.

YorkusRex 12-06-2012 08:06 PM

That guy with the swastika or the penis emblem or the emblem of the swastika made from penises killed me when I was just 3 kills away from getting a UAV.

Reported!

ejbadger 12-06-2012 08:42 PM

I'm pretty sure you just justified that Nazi Germany killed 10 million people due to the fact that the USSR killed 9 times more. Regardless of your opinion (which you are entitled to thanks to the outcome of world war II *wink*) the emblems are offensive to enough people that they are banned.

I also know that the majority of emblems that are offensive are created by people that require attention. Don't let it ruin your fun! :-)

Play Up Pomp3y 12-06-2012 08:45 PM

Sorry? You are saying a swastika is ok because they didn't kill as many MILLION people? Are you joking? Besides, your figures are massively incorrect. The Nazis killed over 7 million Soviet soldiers alone, let alone American, British, French etc. and that's before you get into the civilian millions of Jews, Gypsies, mentally ill, homosexuals and political opponents. Personally, if someone wants it as their emblem, let them, I'll just laugh harder when I kill them. The whole emblem thing is just a license to be offensive, be it Nazi, Soviet, IRA or any other group of dafties. To say the level of offensiveness is connected to amount of deaths is pretty dumb.

ZingZitang 12-06-2012 08:50 PM

This is an interesting question.

One with an Infinitely less interesting and ultimately extremely annoying answer:

Extreme Liberals and Political Correctness.

We Live in a Society and Culture(Especially in America) where doing or saying anything that any random person might find offensive is shunned and outlawed. We live in a society where people TRY to get offended by something. They go around looking for things to be offended by.

You can't have a Different opinion about something in the world today, and especially you can't voice your opinion without being considered a bigot, racist, sexist, etc. . .

Political Correctness is the problem, however only part of it. Ignorant, uneducated people who know next to nothing about history are also a part of the problem. Not saying I condone or agree with what happened under the Swastika in World War 2 of course, but I agree that it shouldn't be banned.

samsaBEAR 12-06-2012 08:50 PM

Swastikas are perfectly fine, as previously mentioned swastikas have been around far longer than the Nazi party. It's when idiots rotate the swastika into the angle that the Nazi flag had, that's when it comes a disgusting thing to do.

wo ai ni xx 12-06-2012 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE DEADLY DOG (Post 5445019)
My philosophy is this. If you take the original swastika without the coloring, and the unique design aspects added by the Nazis there is no harm/no foul in it. But to want to proudly adorn one because you believe it violates your own freedoms is foolish and disrespectful to the millions that died under it.

This, I like the swastika for what it was before it was used in Nazi symbolism, as such I have nothing against the general use of it, but brandishing it upon the red and white background is where it becomes disrespectful.

As for all the communism...well, that's a dark topic that can only go downhill, there's really no point in trying to bring that up...

Quote:

I can see why people have a problem with others having emblems and stuff like this but its just a picture. I don't see why any one would go out of their way to report the person or message them as you just allowed it to effect you for that short period of time. You should just look at it and be like oh go you and then look away.
With Treyarch actually policing their report system now, I will happily take those 3 seconds to press a button a couple of times, the emblem editor is there for you to express your creativity or your adoration of something you love, not to deliberately try and piss off millions of people

snipingheadshot 12-06-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoborg
I don't understand why there is this comparatively unfounded hysteria regarding Nazi Germany.

Most people don't make the swastika for historical reasons. They make it because they're immature. str8giGGin has already proven this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Play Up Pomp3y (Post 5445164)
You are saying a swastika is ok because they didn't kill as many MILLION people?

That's not at all what he said or what he implied. He's pointing out the hypocrisy. He explicitly said it. You don't even need to infer anything.

MR MOO 69 12-06-2012 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsaBEAR (Post 5445173)
Swastikas are perfectly fine, as previously mentioned swastikas have been around far longer than the Nazi party. It's when idiots rotate the swastika into the angle that the Nazi flag had, that's when it comes a disgusting thing to do.


so basically, C***'s are ok as they are natural and have been around for millions of years, its only when people make an emblem of one bumming an arse it becomes unacceptable? don't mean to sound like an arse but this thread is really upsetting, the swastika is commonly placed with the Nazi's and Hitler therefore its offensive, really says a lot about people when they choose to have racist sick things as an emblem, i love the emblem creator in black ops as there are so many decent emblems that people make, but im afraid that one day itl be removed due to idiots that make offensive emblems :mad:

i NatrlKilla i 12-06-2012 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MR MOO 69 (Post 5445216)
so basically, C***'s are ok as they are natural and have been around for millions of years, its only when people make an emblem of one bumming an arse it becomes unacceptable? don't mean to sound like an arse but this thread is really upsetting, the swastika is commonly placed with the Nazi's and Hitler therefore its offensive, really says a lot about people when they choose to have racist sick things as an emblem, i love the emblem creator in black ops as there are so many decent emblems that people make, but im afraid that one day itl be removed due to idiots they make offensive emblems :mad:

That's not what he implied at all. The original Swastika dates back way before the Nazis were ever dreamed of. If I see someone with this Swastika, chances are I wont report them.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...astika.svg.png

If, however, they're using the Nazi design, then yes, they should be reported. Just because Hitler decided to use it, does not mean that all people using it are doing so to be disrespectful pieces of shit.

CYBER GRIMM 12-06-2012 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoborg (Post 5444820)
I really think this deserves to be brought up. I don't understand why there is this comparatively unfounded hysteria regarding Nazi Germany.

Why is it perfectly okay for someone to make an emblem of the Soviet union when they were responsible for over 90 million deaths (mostly civilians) in the 20th century. The Nazis never came close to that, they killed about 10 million.

Setting that aside for one second, let's compare the difference between the Shutzstaffel (SS) and the Nazi emblem. The SS emblem as you know is the typical two S letters put close together resembling lightning bolts. In contrast, the Nazi flag is not a military symbol, it's political representing Germany as a country in that particular period of history.

I'm a little bit out of the loop here but is the SS symbol banned too? If so why? The SS were a special branch of the military personally responsible for Hitler's safety and some of the most skilled fighters in the second world war. As far as I know, all other military symbols (though perhaps not as recognizable) are allowed in the editor. This is hypocritical. The SS and the Nazi's from a historic point of view has generated tons of profits for Activision because it is the very foundation of their product.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that they would ban users from creating such historic emblems when they are allowed to play members of this faction in the older games in multiplayer?

Further, the Nazi swastika is the only political flag that is banned in the editor. I've seen a bunch of Confederate flags, I don't think there is a policy for banning those which would be highly offensive to blacks.

Also I don't buy the argument that it is per se offensive. That is hypocritical. Just look at the facts; 10 million people killed, a majority Russians and Jews vs nearly 100 million people killed. People need to be more rational. The communist flags ought to be more offensive because those factions have done way more harm to humanity than the Nazi's could ever dream of.

Please discuss and keep it civil.

the difference is the impact that the nazi flag had on the rest of the world. i have german friends who want nothing more than to forget that period in time ever happend. the fact there are immature ppl out there who think its amussing or do not understand the symbol on the flag due to ignorance amazes me. if and i find such an emblem you can be assured its reported there and then.

iBuzz7S 12-06-2012 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Mortis II (Post 5444845)
The swastika originated as a symbol of peace in religions such as Buddhism. Swastika literally means "to be good".

Too bad that it will never be known as that ever again. When people think swastika, they think of Germany and Hitler.

Stupid fucking world we live in.

CYBER GRIMM 12-06-2012 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iBuzz7S (Post 5445308)
Too bad that it will never be known as that ever again. When people think swastika, they think of Germany and Hitler.

Stupid fucking world we live in.

my thoughts exactly

KFZ Scrubs 12-06-2012 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i NatrlKilla i (Post 5445264)

Looks a hell of a lot different than the ones the Germans used.
Doesn't matter though... they'll do anything to save face. If it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, they'll do it. Which reminds me....what did they do with that MW2 map with the islam phrase in the bathroom

JORDAN K 95 12-06-2012 10:32 PM

i think it looks cool. and theres no harm in that

back in a school day i drew a picture in the back of my school book of a war, the british flag on the left, and the nazi flag on the right, and it was basically a crime just drawing it on a piece of paper.

if swastika isnt allowed in the emblem editor, why is it allowed to be on the teleporters on der riese and on all of the zombies in kino der toten and nacht der untoten

Ceris 12-06-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoborg (Post 5444820)
I really think this deserves to be brought up. I don't understand why there is this comparatively unfounded hysteria regarding Nazi Germany.

Why is it perfectly okay for someone to make an emblem of the Soviet union when they were responsible for over 90 million deaths (mostly civilians) in the 20th century. The Nazis never came close to that, they killed about 10 million.

Setting that aside for one second, let's compare the difference between the Shutzstaffel (SS) and the Nazi emblem. The SS emblem as you know is the typical two S letters put close together resembling lightning bolts. In contrast, the Nazi flag is not a military symbol, it's political representing Germany as a country in that particular period of history.

I'm a little bit out of the loop here but is the SS symbol banned too? If so why? The SS were a special branch of the military personally responsible for Hitler's safety and some of the most skilled fighters in the second world war. As far as I know, all other military symbols (though perhaps not as recognizable) are allowed in the editor. This is hypocritical. The SS and the Nazi's from a historic point of view has generated tons of profits for Activision because it is the very foundation of their product.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that they would ban users from creating such historic emblems when they are allowed to play members of this faction in the older games in multiplayer?

Further, the Nazi swastika is the only political flag that is banned in the editor. I've seen a bunch of Confederate flags, I don't think there is a policy for banning those which would be highly offensive to blacks.

Also I don't buy the argument that it is per se offensive. That is hypocritical. Just look at the facts; 10 million people killed, a majority Russians and Jews vs nearly 100 million people killed. People need to be more rational. The communist flags ought to be more offensive because those factions have done way more harm to humanity than the Nazi's could ever dream of.

Please discuss and keep it civil.

This is because the Swastika drawn as it was by Nazi Germany is a modern symbol of not only hate, but as the symbol representing the group that caused mass murder because of this hate. You compared it to the Confederate flag. IMO! The Confederate flag isn't as offensive because, while ruled by only hate, but also a political reason. They were trying to break away from the Union to have their own political freedom to do as they please. Nazi Germany basically killed people just out of hate.

Can't say much about the USSR symbol as I have less knowledge about it. But again, the USSR did it not out of hate but political reasons. Germany didn't have to cause the Holocaust. It didn't benefit them politically.

Counter arguement to those who say they shouldn't be banned in emblem editor. By putting that as your emblem, you are using the swastika to either A) Be used as a symbol to represent yourself or B) Give your support to the people who caused the Holocaust. You can't say "remove them from the game overall then" because in the case mentioned above with Der Riese, It's used to show that this is Nazi Germany's work! Not to show support to their cause.



@KFZ Scrubs: I have no idea. I loaded up Favela recently and the portraits in question are still there.

iBuzz7S 12-06-2012 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KFZ Scrubs (Post 5445350)
Which reminds me....what did they do with that MW2 map with the islam phrase in the bathroom

It was removed/edited and the map came back into rotation not too long after.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JORDAN K 95 (Post 5445392)
if swastika isnt allowed in the emblem editor, why is it allowed to be on the teleporters on der riese and on all of the zombies in kino der toten and nacht der untoten

Propaganda? It's the same as Microsoft putting an advert on my dashboard for Lynx, where the ad is borderline porn, having a C-list blonde (Sophie Monk) talk about cleaning a guys balls and grabbing a large bag of balls (bag of soccer balls that is), but if I had something similar in my profile, it'd be some type of sexual misconduct and I will get in trouble.

Double standards. Nothing more, nothing less.

MC B0B x360a 12-06-2012 11:34 PM

Im truly surprised this thread is still open. It got closed pretty quick when the same exact thing was discussed during Black Ops 1

Rickmassacre 12-06-2012 11:45 PM

you're actually serious..

iBuzz7S 12-06-2012 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC B0B x360a (Post 5445491)
Im truly surprised this thread is still open. It got closed pretty quick when the same exact thing was discussed during Black Ops 1

Other than the one person who posted hail Hitler, there isn't anything major. Members are discussing the rights and wrongs of a swastika as an emblem in Black Ops II.

Hoborg 12-07-2012 12:36 AM

My argument is based on historic interest and the relevance to the game. Now I know it's not based on WW2 but it's still a military shooter. The SS and the Nazi symbol have military and paramilitary influence and significance just as any other political symbol out there such as the Confederacy and the USSR.

They all represent major eras of violent strife that significantly shaped our history therefore we should be allowed to create emblems that bear some relevance to the idea of armed conflict.

I think one should have the right to create an emblem of Nazi Germany. The whole troll presumption is just blatantly false. Some of us have legitimate historic interests and just because we create a symbol doesn't mean we adopt its meaning as our own.

It would be as wholly irrational to assume that because someone has an avatar of a female that the person is female. Just as it is wholly irrational that all these symbols (USSR, Nazi Germany, Confederacy, etc) represent the true view point and adoption of their emblem creators.

My message and main thesis just boils down to this: If they don't ban all political flags, they shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose which ones are acceptable. That is by statistical and historical preponderance irrational.

And please don't make this into a First Amendment debate (there's always a few who will be tempted). I know very well that I don't have free speech rights because it's a private venue. It's not about a constitutional right to create per se, it's about equitable consideration and fairness.

I'm just revealing through open discussion the hypocrisy surrounding emblem creation.

It should be noted that the CEO of Activision is Jewish. There is also a theory about the Jewish locus of control in mass media which could explain why there are few games in which you are allowed to play the role of the Germans rather than assuming the role of the Allies. I am not saying I personally adopting this view. It's just something to consider.

I am personally disappointed though. I have had a scholastic interest in Nazi Germany since I was very young.


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