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Old 02-03-2011, 03:39 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Gamma View Post
I believe that freedom is all about choice, and I believe that each and every one of those slaves should have been allowed to choose if they wanted to stay in the virtual world, or leave and face the real world.
I agree, but I don't think they were given a choice. They were abducted from their homes, put in slave ships, and migrated en masse to the Pyramid. Monkey and Trip were about half way through the journey when they escaped, and they obviously didn't get a choice.

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You have to imagine what's awaiting them in the real world. The population of the Earth has been reduced to 50,000. How many of those people would die in the war to exterminate the mechs? And exterminating the mechs might not even be possible since it's stated that they can self replicate. And how many more of those people would die of thirst and starvation? The game implies that food and drinkable water is not exactly easy to come by. Trip's village was able to provide for themselves, but like Trip said, they were a closed ecosystem with very few people.
Based on the mech populace of the Leviathan and the mega-scorpion mechs, people can also control mechs. Not a whole lot would have to die if they made a massive production line of mechs and gradually expanded their civilization. They could use the Pyramid as a base since it's already got a large defense system, and it seems to be self-sufficient as well in terms of resources since it supports a massive population.

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If people want to spend their lives trying to bring the world back from the brink of extinction, then more power to them. However, the sad truth is that the world may be too far gone to save. If this was the case, wouldn't you rather live in a lie rather than in a world without hope? At least then you might be able to find a little happiness and meaning for your life instead of wandering the wastelands waiting for the end.
Any happiness or meaning you found would be a lie, just as much so as your life. Your entire existence would be nothing more than data. I would rather go down fighting for something I care about than living in a mindless society of nothingness. If there isn't any hope, then you have to start it and make a difference. Even if you die, other people will continue what you started, and once something like that gets rolling, there's no stopping it.

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So like I said before, I don't believe that Trip had the right to make that decision for all those people.
I know opinions will differ, and I'm not so much trying to sway your opinion as explain why I disagree. Plus, it's just a fun debate to have
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:53 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Neverender View Post
I agree, but I don't think they were given a choice. They were abducted from their homes, put in slave ships, and migrated en masse to the Pyramid. Monkey and Trip were about half way through the journey when they escaped, and they obviously didn't get a choice.
Exactly. None of them were given a choice by either Pyramid, or by Trip. Obviously Pyramid was much more in the wrong because of the kidnappings and murders like you said though.

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Based on the mech populace of the Leviathan and the mega-scorpion mechs, people can also control mechs. Not a whole lot would have to die if they made a massive production line of mechs and gradually expanded their civilization. They could use the Pyramid as a base since it's already got a large defense system, and it seems to be self-sufficient as well in terms of resources since it supports a massive population.
I think the mega-scorpions were being controlled remotely by Pyramid, but now you make me wonder if there are wild mega-scorpions wandering the wastelands. O_o And if that's the case, then even another Leviathan couldn't stand up to all of them. Plus you couldn't really use another Leviathan or mega-scorpions to do away with the smaller mechs. That's like using C4 to get rid of a beehive. It's just overkill, and would probably just end up destroying the Earth even more.

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Any happiness or meaning you found would be a lie, just as much so as your life. Your entire existence would be nothing more than data. I would rather go down fighting for something I care about than living in a mindless society of nothingness. If there isn't any hope, then you have to start it and make a difference. Even if you die, other people will continue what you started, and once something like that gets rolling, there's no stopping it.
I suppose it would depend on the kind of person you are. Personally, I would probably want to go out fighting too. But it's like you said, people shouldn't be forced to fight for a cause that they don't believe in. For some people, there's just no way for them to find happiness or meaning in the post-apocalyptic world, especially now that they've been exposed to the pre-apocalyptic world. Some people might even be driven mad after being ripped from the fantasy to which they've become accustomed. Like Pyramid said, most of those people had lives and families inside the virtual world. Even though it may not be real, it sure feels real to them.

I hate to use the Matrix as an example here since it's been compared to this game a million times already, but look what happened with the character of Cypher. He was willing to do anything to return to his fake life, even murder all of his shipmates. I'm sure more than a few of those slaves would have similar reactions. You just never can tell with people sometimes.

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I know opinions will differ, and I'm not so much trying to sway your opinion as explain why I disagree. Plus, it's just a fun debate to have
Oh I know, and I'm the same way. I always enjoy a good point counterpoint, especially when it involves a story as awesome as this one. It's the main reason I loved the ending too because it paves the way for discussions like this thread has. I've been wanting to talk to my friends about it, but I can't get any of them to play the game. XD
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Gamma View Post
I think the mega-scorpions were being controlled remotely by Pyramid, but now you make me wonder if there are wild mega-scorpions wandering the wastelands. O_o And if that's the case, then even another Leviathan couldn't stand up to all of them. Plus you couldn't really use another Leviathan or mega-scorpions to do away with the smaller mechs. That's like using C4 to get rid of a beehive. It's just overkill, and would probably just end up destroying the Earth even more.
Never thought of it that way, but if humanity was dedicated to surviving, they could definitely make at least a significant dent in the mech population. Quoting music would sound kind of cheesy in this situation, but "Rise or Die Trying" seems to be fitting for the scenario.

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I suppose it would depend on the kind of person you are. Personally, I would probably want to go out fighting too. But it's like you said, people shouldn't be forced to fight for a cause that they don't believe in. For some people, there's just no way for them to find happiness or meaning in the post-apocalyptic world, especially now that they've been exposed to the pre-apocalyptic world. Some people might even be driven mad after being ripped from the fantasy to which they've become accustomed. Like Pyramid said, most of those people had lives and families inside the virtual world. Even though it may not be real, it sure feels real to them.
I wouldn't suggest throwing people into war, but attempting to inspire people to action. Some people still wouldn't want to help, and you can't blame them for that, but what else could they do? They could mope around all day or do something about it, and when they did something it would be beneficial to this movement.

You would lose some people in the transition back to reality, but Pyramid is to blame for that. We don't know how realistic it was or how many people there were in Pyramid, so it's impossible to get an accurate estimate of the number lost, but I would assume you'd still have a substantial force afterwards.

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I hate to use the Matrix as an example here since it's been compared to this game a million times already, but look what happened with the character of Cypher. He was willing to do anything to return to his fake life, even murder all of his shipmates. I'm sure more than a few of those slaves would have similar reactions. You just never can tell with people sometimes.
Believe it or not, I've never seen the Matrix (it's on my Blockbuster que >.<), but I can imagine. Again, that relates back to not knowing how realistic the Pyramid was, what the effects of detachment are, and the number of people attached. I'm assuming we'll find these out if there's a sequel, but we don't know for sure, so it's hard to make an estimate on that.

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Oh I know, and I'm the same way. I always enjoy a good point counterpoint, especially when it involves a story as awesome as this one. It's the main reason I loved the ending too because it paves the way for discussions like this thread has. I've been wanting to talk to my friends about it, but I can't get any of them to play the game. XD
All my friends say they'll get around to it eventually, but they're also the people who clock countless hours on Reach or BlOps multiplayer, so I'm pessimistic they'll actually do it. I feel your pain.
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Old 04-09-2011, 06:34 AM   #34
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I think she did. Like so many have posted, living a false life would not be good for anyone.

And Ninja Theory has stated that a #2 was never planned on and they put the whole story in this game. They said it is possible but not very likely. The game would have had to have been overly successful for there to be a second one!

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/201...nja-theory.htm

What Ninja Theory said in 2010 is linked above!
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:00 PM   #35
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Personally, I could care less about a sequel. They've done everything they could do with the story. Everyone lives happily ever after. I'd be more interested in a PREQUEL. Explaining how Monkey and Trip ended up on that ship. I'd love to see a game that focuses solely on Monkey. His character is probably one of the more well thought out, superbly acted characters I've seen in a while. And that just screams for another game with him in it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:52 PM   #36
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I agree to Gamma! This decision is not in Trips hands! But on the other site, who is in position to do such a decision?

I would prefer to live in a dream then in a destroyed world ruled by Mechs.
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:44 PM   #37
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I say yes and no.

Yes - There slaves. It's not something you'd want being held against your will. Therefore it makes them a slave and doesn't allow them to have an opinion on the matter.

No - In the wasteland, what if one of those people using the virtual reality (not sure of the storyline, completed ages ago) have nothing left in the wasteland? What if there family were taken, lost or died? The dreaming and the virtual reality becomes there life as they have nothing to lose, as it's there in that virtual reality being lived. Something they might want rather than trying to rebuild knowing your loss is personal.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:05 PM   #38
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I can't believe some of you people. You'd rather live in a fantasy world where your freedom is forfeit? That insane. I'd rather live free. Be the master of my own destiny. I'd die before I give up my freedom. Regardless of how sugar coated the offer of slavery might be.
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:05 AM   #39
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I don't know. I just finished the game. And I'm also not sure any of what I'm about to type will make any sense, as I haven't had time to give it much thought yet.

An individual's reality is just a matter of perspective. Yes, in Trip's reality all of these people were captured and forced into a virtual reality. But that was no longer the reality of the people hooked up to the masks. They lived in a different reality that was apparently all rainbows and sunshine. It wasn't fake to them. Was it right of Trip to decide that their reality was the wrong one? Not really. But it wasn't right of Andy Serkis to force them out of their reality and into his either.

But what I am curious about, were they really "forced" into this reality? Yes, they were kidnapped, but we were never shown if they were given the choice of the new reality or not once they got there. I mean, when Monkey is given the mask, he seems genuinely content and doesn't resist at all. Were they really slaves, or not?

I think Trip's decision was more about her own personal vendetta against Pyramid for killing her father. Which is understandable.

Also, while I love Trip as a character, she was perfectly okay with "enslaving" Monkey for her own ends, but when Pyramid does it he is evil?

I don't know. The ending is left purposefully ambiguous. And it kind of makes me mad. Would even a little closure have killed them?
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:42 PM   #40
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Hell no she didnt do the right thing! Just like the Matrix movies, keep me plugged in! Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 05-02-2011, 04:09 PM   #41
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Regardless of how utopian their mind-controlled lives were, they were still slaves.
This ^^ Completely agree it was the right thing to do, she may not have had the "right" to make the decision as some have said, but she was the only one in a position to make it and a decision to keep them as slaves or release them had to be made. Anyone with the right to make that decision were either slaves or dead.

Monkey was getting brainwashed by the mask and the beautiful old world it showed him. He would have been lost as well if Trip hadn't ripped the old guy apart. It wasn't just a vendetta for her father, she'd grown attached to Monkey and was saving him too. She lost her father, her entire community and Pigsy, and I think she'd be damned if she was going to lose her only remaining friend too. I don't question her motivations.

I'm confused on one thing, weren't the mechs controlled by the slavers? There were combat mechs on the slaver ship at the beginning. I thought the mechs were just Slaver tools?

If that's the case, then when Trip shut down Pyramid, then theoretically the mechs would either be shut down or lose their central control programming/orders. Not sure which, if they didn't shut down, who knows how they'd react without central control.

If they shut down and were no longer a problem, humanity can escape the pyramid and rebuild without threats of mech attacks.

That Trip was enslaving Monkey to get her home, she was struggling with that the whole game, she understood what she was doing was hypocritical. But she also knew she couldn't survive on her own and Monkey was an unknown at the time. Use what tools you have on hand.

In the end when she released him he told her to reconnect of his own choice. They were in the shit together and he wanted to see it through and protect her. Empathy and caring.

I would definitely be interested in a prequel or a sequel, there's a lot of this universe that seems worth exploring.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:25 AM   #42
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It has come to my attention that the thread title may be a minor spoiler. At the time I started this thread I thought that the title was vague enough not to spoil anything, but it seems that I was mistaken. If anyone else has had their experienced ruined by this I apologize; this was never my intention. If a mod would change the title of the thread it would be much appreciated.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:14 AM   #43
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Personally, I could care less about a sequel. They've done everything they could do with the story. Everyone lives happily ever after. I'd be more interested in a PREQUEL. Explaining how Monkey and Trip ended up on that ship. I'd love to see a game that focuses solely on Monkey. His character is probably one of the more well thought out, superbly acted characters I've seen in a while. And that just screams for another game with him in it.
I agree, would be much more interesting a prequel that can tell more about the story...
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:09 AM   #44
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Absolutely.

Its always going to be a hard decision, but I would always rather have the truth and have it lead to hard times than be lied to to keep me in a little safe bubble.
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Old 10-04-2011, 04:59 PM   #45
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Pyramid had good intentions, but I think it was right to unplug those machines. You cannot live in a virtual world while the world around you rots away. Granted I don't see the slaves from Pyramid building a very good future because they have lived such a sheltered life from Pyramid, granted I don't know if there are any Mechs left. Great game, great story, I want to get my hands on the book!
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:33 PM   #46
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I think Trip did the right thing. Seems better to try and rebuild the real world rather than just live in a virtual world.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:26 PM   #47
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Would you stay in The Matrix? Take the Red pill or the Blue pill? She didn't do right or wrong, it depends on your personal beliefs.

Me, I was waiting to regain control of Monkey so I could kill the frigging Pyramid
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:51 AM   #48
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I was just waiting for her to do it. I would have been very disappointed if she didn't. It would've been like PoP 2008 where a decision made at the end made everything you did in the game absolutely useless.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:05 PM   #49
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I can see the argument for leaving people plugged in but I think she did the right thing. People should be free to choose.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:40 PM   #50
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I thought it was going to give us a choice after we see what Monkey sees. I felt like Trip made the wrong decision and ruined the ending, she didn't even see what Monkey dd.
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:11 PM   #51
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hell yeah she did the right thing i would rather strugle with the truth than live a lie
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:11 PM   #52
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I thought the ending was a lot like the matrix. Im sure there are a lot of people who would of rather stayed plugged in but I feel the majority would rather have freedom. Humans are very resiliant and I think they would have found a way and started to recreate society.

I was more interested in what happened to Monkey and Trip? The game just ended right after that scene and it left me wondering what happened to them and their relationship.
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