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View Poll Results: Does the recording and archiving of 100% of your electronic communications bother you
Yes 25 56.82%
No 15 34.09%
Don't believe it is real 7 15.91%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Felonious Monk View Post
And I'm saying it's a price that we should rather pay than to have a government that will follow a series of slippery slope decisions that would result in the systematic murder of millions, imprisonment of tens of millions and hold the other 300 million hostage indefinitely.

And I'm not even invoking Godwin's Law.

We've had people sacrifice their lives, families and ideals to secure the liberty of this country. Their blood means nothing?
I just want to start out by saying hi, I am Kyle. I honestly do not think we have ever talked to each other on here before, which is funny, because we are both active members.

Are you implying that with the Patriot Act it will eventually lead up to our entire government imprisoning us? I am not really quite sure to take you seriously or not, maybe I am not on the same page as you.

I do not think Carmona is supporting the government having files of everything we do and say online, through texts, email, or other sorts. He did say he was in the same boat as me, which is that if you are a suspect and there is reasonable reasons to watch you to look into certain data through key words to protect the safety of the country then it should be done. I will say it one more time..

Rights end when it becomes a matter of national security.

I voted Yes on this poll, however I do support the Patriot Act.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:02 PM   #92
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Are you implying that with the Patriot Act it will eventually lead up to our entire government imprisoning us? I am not really quite sure to take you seriously or not, maybe I am not on the same page as you.
PATRIOT Act is but one cog in the machine. Attitude of government officials, social reception to legislation, it can all lead up to a prison state. Will it? Eh. We're not going to reach the levels of Oceania unless the people plead for it, but even portions of it, no matter what the trade-off, does not seem worth it to me. To boot there's misapplications of PATRIOT Act for non-national security reasons that should've had everyone screaming foul, but instead we live in such a complacent country they feel these are acceptable damages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controv...he_Patriot_Act

Quote:
I do not think Carmona is supporting the government having files of everything we do and say online, through texts, email, or other sorts. He did say he was in the same boat as me, which is that if you are a suspect and there is reasonable reasons to watch you to look into certain data through key words to protect the safety of the country then it should be done.
Joseph Stalin's director of secret police had the mantra "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime." I shouldn't have to jump up and down like Oprah to convey to you "You're a criminal! He's a criminal! EVERYBODY'S A CRIMINAL!"

Are you not white? SUSPICIOUS. Do you own a gun? SUSPICIOUS. Do you play video games? SUSPICIOUS. Do you have network traffic that goes overseas? BOYS WE HAVE OUR SUSPECT.

We have so much legislation in this country that you're constantly on the razors edge of being charged with a crime. Why give the government that much power and then let them listen to everything you say so that you can point them in the right direction to boot?

To save lives? It won't save lives. Humanizing each other saves lives. Taking care of each other saves lives. Respect saves lives. Oppression just makes people crazy, and rightly so.

Quote:
I will say it one more time..

Rights end when it becomes a matter of national security.
Then those that are to protect us are instead as barbaric as those that seek to harm our institutions, making the terrorists almost better by comparison.

When you're not reading an American citizen his rights because you're claiming he's an enemy combatant for purposes of convenience, and then change your mind later because you want him to face federal instead of military court so that he can face the death penalty, something is fucking wrong with our process.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:13 PM   #93
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Let's say there was empirical evidence that it did make everyone safer. Would your opinion be different?
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Originally Posted by Skillet View Post
No... because it won't. A hypothetical is only worthy of discussion if it's possible. The government will argue that it does make you safer to convince you to accept it, not because it's the truth.
With Skillet on this one. No.

The only people that protects is the people at the top of the economic food chain who will have access to a boundless supply of poor and middle class scapegoats.

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Originally Posted by Felonious Monk View Post
To save lives? It won't save lives. Humanizing each other saves lives. Taking care of each other saves lives. Respect saves lives. Oppression just makes people crazy, and rightly so.

When you're not reading an American citizen his rights because you're claiming he's an enemy combatant for purposes of convenience, and then change your mind later because you want him to face federal instead of military court so that he can face the death penalty, something is fucking wrong with our process.
Shit I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:21 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Felonious Monk View Post
PATRIOT Act is but one cog in the machine. Attitude of government officials, social reception to legislation, it can all lead up to a prison state. Will it? Eh. We're not going to reach the levels of Oceania unless the people plead for it, but even portions of it, no matter what the trade-off, does not seem worth it to me. To boot there's misapplications of PATRIOT Act for non-national security reasons that should've had everyone screaming foul, but instead we live in such a complacent country they feel these are acceptable damages:
I am starting to fear that you are a conspiracy weirdo. Which if that is the case, I am wasting my time even replying. The government wants power. Do I support it? Absolutely not. But by supporting the Patriot Act I do not foresee the chaotic mess you do. The Patriot act hardly extending the power if used properly and does nothing but benefit US citizens at the end of the day, once again if it is used PROPERLY. If you fear this is honestly giving the government to much power, I think me and you will agree then on the destruction of social programs the US currently is pushing, Obama"care" to name just one of the recent moves towards socialism. So we probably agree on most stances. And I am not clicking on your link, I will not waste my time reading a Wikipedia page when it involved political stances. Now obviously I have no idea what is on it, and I do not care.


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Originally Posted by Felonious Monk View Post
Joseph Stalin's director of secret police had the mantra "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime." I shouldn't have to jump up and down like Oprah to convey to you "You're a criminal! He's a criminal! EVERYBODY'S A CRIMINAL!"

Are you not white? SUSPICIOUS. Do you own a gun? SUSPICIOUS. Do you play video games? SUSPICIOUS. Do you have network traffic that goes overseas? BOYS WE HAVE OUR SUSPECT.
Once again, I support the proper use of the Patriot Act. I am just not sure what to say anymore, I feel like a broken record. I do not support the government having records, I voted YES on this thread! And I certainly do not support racial profiling...I am a proud supporter of the NRA, and obviously I play videogames.

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To save lives? It won't save lives. Humanizing each other saves lives. Taking care of each other saves lives. Respect saves lives. Oppression just makes people crazy, and rightly so
If you are trying to push the hippie stance of everybody love everybody. You are fighting for a hopeless cause.

I also couldn't help but notice that you did not say hi back...
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:49 PM   #95
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I am starting to fear that you are a conspiracy weirdo. Which if that is the case, I am wasting my time even replying.
Conspiracy weirdos are people who think the Jews are in league with Reptilians to systematically kidnap children to work in their underground mining operations, shuttling them in from the Denver International Airport the official airport of the West Coast Capital of the New World Order.

I know what conspiracy theorists do and what they subscribe to. It's not a fit for me, no. Sorry.

Quote:
The government wants power. Do I support it? Absolutely not. But by supporting the Patriot Act I do not foresee the chaotic mess you do. The Patriot act hardly extending the power if used properly and does nothing but benefit US citizens at the end of the day, once again if it is used PROPERLY. If you fear this is honestly giving the government to much power, I think me and you will agree then on the destruction of social programs the US currently is pushing, Obama"care" to name just one of the recent moves towards socialism. So we probably agree on most stances.
I believe in the area of health care we should've been yanking key personnel out of pharmaceutical companies and charging them with price-fixing conspiracy related charges. They should've been made an example of and medical technology and R&D should move at the same optimistic flow as every other damn thing we do.

Instead these people collaborated their power and our politicians have their hands in their pockets. So now, instead of punishing bad people, we're regulating bad companies in order to spur competition that should've already been in effect. Now we're repeating this same bullshit all over again with financial institutions where we give those business representatives a pass on criminal responsibility and instead will fine the companies which will in turn hurt the Americans that even have any money invested in these companies.

RomnObamAhfuckwhoisgoingtogetblamedthisweekcare is a symptom of a sick system. Too little, too late, too costly, too obtrusive and against free market principles. And yet we focus all blame on politicians instead of giving half blame to them and the other half to the businessmen who price-fixed us into this mess.

Quote:
And I am not clicking on your link, I will not waste my time reading a Wikipedia page when it involved political stances. Now obviously I have no idea what is on it, and I do not care.
Your loss, though I could just copypasta it here. It boils down to that whole "what's the cost?" thing I keep repeating over and over. PATRIOT Act is so great only in the best interest of our country in the name of national security? Then why is it being used in order to go after the financial records of media pirates who pissed off the MPAA? Time and time again it's invoked for inappropriate reasons. You clamor that it's not the intent but when something is so overbearing and permeates every layer of our society and then, at the very least occasionally is used inappropriately, it's one time too many.

Quote:
If you are trying to push the hippie stance of everybody love everybody. You are fighting for a hopeless cause.
My bold for irony for those in the know.

Just the same, it's not. We put ourselves in a superpower position in order to line the pockets of a few, and because we piss everyone off everywhere we go it necessitates a huge military and overburdening laws. If we kicked back and recoiled back into ourselves for awhile and gave no one any reason to hate us, we'd be just fine.

We stand at the guard of these countries and constantly have messaging go out along the lines of "if you're not with us you're against us" or "you will be dealt with swiftly if you do X!" when the reality is we have big enough britches to roll with the punches when an attack happens and allow it to get to a breaking point. When it does, you compile the best information as possible, find a location that harbored or spearheaded the attacks and drop a nuke.

The world community will complain and you just calmly explain that if it continues, you'll drop another one. Anyone within thousands of miles of the line of fire will rush to apprehend and try their own.

How's that for a hippie stance?

Quote:
I also couldn't help but notice that you did not say hi back...
I ignored it because it's not a courtesy that you'd extend to someone with a penis.

I rolled my eyes and was willing to leave it at that.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:02 PM   #96
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I ignored it because it's not a courtesy that you'd extend to someone with a penis.

I rolled my eyes and was willing to leave it at that.
Now this part has me. I actually was not going to reply at all. I will admit it, I honestly need to read your replies a solid 5 times before I think I may understand what you are saying. That and, I know when to back down from a discussion, not accept defeat, but just merely accepting your opinion, not fact.

But I honestly was just being nice to get on your good side. Although we have not talking directly I have been an observer to other people you have talked to. Usually they end bad. Please do not drag me into the whole sexist card, I have no interest in your lady parts or whatever you think I was trying to do.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:29 PM   #97
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The world community will complain and you just calmly explain that if it continues, you'll drop another one. Anyone within thousands of miles of the line of fire will rush to apprehend and try their own.

How's that for a hippie stance?
I don't think that would be that effective. Just destroy the place terrorism seems to always originate from...and everyone from there. Problem solved. Threats don't work with fanatics. Removing the threat from existence does.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #98
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Shit I couldn't have said it better myself.
You do know you can't "humanize" an extreme terrioist hellbent on killing ever last one of us...right?
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:03 PM   #99
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I don't think that would be that effective. Just destroy the place terrorism seems to always originate from...and everyone from there. Problem solved. Threats don't work with fanatics. Removing the threat from existence does.
I don't know if you actually feel that way, but that kinda seems like the terrorists' point of view, only more extreme.

Terrorists bomb you because (1 reason of many) they feel threatened by American (Western) rule. You feel threatened by terrorists, so you go kill millions of innocents, to stop the minority? Then what happens when, say, China or Russia feels threatened by you? They decide to take the same action against you, and it dominoes into the extinction of all human life.

Let's look at the recent North Korean threats. If the roles were reversed, and The US was in North Korea's position, and they in the US', do you think the US would comply with the demands of Korea? I don't. Western society is full of arrogance, and until that dies down, extremists will do what they think is right to counter it. Do I agree with it? No. But while our governments go around trying to push their weight around, it will continue.

So to answer the original question of the thread, no, I'm not happy with governments being able to collect all the data they want. They should stop trying to control everything, and then they wouldn't have to worry about terrorists attacking, and wouldn't need to take such measures.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:17 PM   #100
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They should stop trying to control everything, and then they wouldn't have to worry about terrorists attacking, and wouldn't need to take such measures.
I dont think it is much about western government. They think that if the kill an American they go to heaven. They are just crazies who are brought up by other crazies. It is a religious thing and they think they are doing gods work.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:19 PM   #101
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Please do not drag me into the whole sexist card, I have no interest in your lady parts or whatever you think I was trying to do.
Not me...show me your lady parts! WOOOOOOOO!!!

Seriously though, I dont think there are many people who come out on the winning side of a discussion with Monk. Monk if you aren't in law school, you should be.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #102
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Not me...show me your lady parts! WOOOOOOOO!!!

Seriously though, I dont think there are many people who come out on the winning side of a discussion with Monk. Monk if you aren't in law school, you should be.
I don't have enough substance. Just the anger and enough knowledge to get me in trouble.

Maybe radio personality, like a Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck for anarchists.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:53 PM   #103
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I don't have enough substance. Just the anger and enough knowledge to get me in trouble.

Maybe radio personality, like a Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck for anarchists.
ugh...you just named two of the worse people in radio/media.....but lets not get too far off topic....
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:05 PM   #104
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I dont think it is much about western government. They think that if the kill an American they go to heaven. They are just crazies who are brought up by other crazies. It is a religious thing and they think they are doing gods work.
This. Which just means it will never stop unless someone puts a stop to it. My solution would work, extreme no doubt but it would put an end to it.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:11 PM   #105
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ugh...you just named two of the worse people in radio/media.....but lets not get too far off topic....
It was intentional.

I mostly listen to NPR, but none of their hosts, thankfully, are known for browbeating and leading people into verbal traps. I'm not saying to be Limbaugh or Beck, but to bring that level, that balance, to non-establishment.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:40 AM   #106
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I dont think it is much about western government. They think that if the kill an American they go to heaven. They are just crazies who are brought up by other crazies. It is a religious thing and they think they are doing gods work.

Not always true.

Take the PLO for example. They were/are a terrorist group that also serves as a government for a people without a state. Go watch some old documentaries about the Palestinian refugee camps after the creation of Israel. It will open your eyes to how terrorists can be created.

Take some peoples homes away from them. Force them into tents in a desert. Give them one doctor for every 50,000 people. Don't feed them enough. Its easy to understand how those children grew up to be angry and how they took that anger out on Israel and supporters of Israel. It doesn't make their methods right. But you understand why they do it and why for most of the PLO religion really doesn't matter.

Religion isn't always the driving force. Some people couch their motives in religion and others sensationalize a terrorists religion to push their own agenda (which is often to make their own religion look better by comparison).

This is why Monk is absolutely right about one thing. The way to fight terrorism is to humanize people. Its to take care of people. Its to feed people. Its to convince people that they don't need to go kill themselves and 100 other people just so their family will have bread to eat.

Don't think for a second that most suicide bombers are doing it to go the heaven. They don't. Most of those people aren't all that religious. They are approached by religious extremists who value their own lives to much to do it themselves.

Those extremists find someone who is struggling to feed their family and tells them "if you go blow yourself up and take some people with you we will make sure your family has enough to eat for the rest of their lives. Oh yeah...You will go to heaven as well."

That is why the old Soviet method of fighting terrorism was so effective. If you are committing a terrorist act to provide for your family, as most are, then there is no reason to do it if you know the KGB is going to hunt down every single member of your family and brutally murder them.

Since I don't agree with the brutality of the old USSR then the only other way to fight terror is with kindness and you don't make yourself any safer by taking away rights. Like I've said before, over the last half century western nations have been the safest societies in the history of the world. Even with terror attacks. It is not a coincidence that these safest societies in history also happen to be the most free societies in history.

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you guys just do not get the fact that I would trade away part of my right to privacy for all those lives that were lost on 9/11.

I do understand that. That is why I said I wouldn't argue with you about whether the laws/Constitution should be re-written.

However, you need to understand that re-writting the laws/Constitution to give the government more leeway in infringing upon our rights is completely different from letting the government illegally infringe upon our rights.

Right now the government is illegally infringing upon our rights. Which is unacceptable. Change the laws/Constitution or stop the surveillance. There is nothing more dangerous to a society then the government not being transparent or honest with the people. It is more dangerous to the safety of the people then terrorism. History has shown this to be true.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:08 AM   #107
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This is why Monk is absolutely right about one thing.


Quote:
Those extremists find someone who is struggling to feed their family and tells them "if you go blow yourself up and take some people with you we will make sure your family has enough to eat for the rest of their lives. Oh yeah...You will go to heaven as well."
I say this and get called a conspiracy minded nut job. You say it and x360a creates a new hybrid award for you made from a smelted Nobel Prize and Pulitzer.

A Nobelitzer. If you will.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:16 AM   #108
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I say this and get called a conspiracy minded nut job. You say it and x360a creates a new hybrid award for you made from a smelted Nobel Prize and Pulitzer.

A Nobelitzer. If you will.

Lol.

Its all about the delivery.

It's well accepted in the academic community that terrorism has virtually nothing to do with religion (copy cat terrorism does however). The problem is, most of the general public isn't educated enough to know this. We over-educate our people in many ways yet always seem to forget the most important stuff. Most people depend on what the media and their priests are telling them about terrorism. Highly educated people know that those are not reliable sources on the matter. Agendas abound.

Most people don't know our connections to Al Queda during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Most people don't know they were our allies. Most people don't know we turned our back on them.

Just like we turned our backs on the Shi'ite Muslims that were trying to challenge Saddam's rule during the 80s and 90s. People we promised our support to. It isn't a coincidence that many of those same clerics were the ones giving the US problems after we removed Saddam.

Most people attribute the embassy hostage situation in Iran to religion. No. It is accurate that religious extremists pushed the Shah out of power. However, the embassy takeover was a result of the fear that the US would come in and put the Shah back in power just like we did in 1953 after the Shah lost power to a democratic government that didn't fit British or American economic interests.

Most people don't know that Likud, a major political party in Israel, was once much like the PLO. A pseudo-political party that committed terrorist acts against British and American soldiers and officials who they felt were meddling to much in what would become Israel. The difference between them and the PLO? They became the West's friends (and aren't Muslim).

Religion is more often the cover. The smokescreen. Not the real reason for terrorist actions. Before we can ever truly combat terrorism people need to accept this. Then we can start feeding people. Then we can start building people homes. Then we can help people break out of vicious cycles of societal poverty. Then we can put a dent in terrorism.

Taking away our liberties, our freedoms isn't the solution to making us safer. Using those freedoms and liberties in constructive manners is the solution.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:51 AM   #109
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Oh, wait, I'm wrong guys, it's over.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...acebook-chats/

FBI and Department of Justice feel they don't need a warrant for your accounts and other info. Just a subpoena.

It's done. You guys won. Close down the popcorn stand. Kill the monkey. Fold the tent.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:11 AM   #110
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Oh, wait, I'm wrong guys, it's over.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...acebook-chats/

FBI and Department of Justice feel they don't need a warrant for your accounts and other info. Just a subpoena.

It's done. You guys won. Close down the popcorn stand. Kill the monkey. Fold the tent.
Oh? And this is new? What about Google and those nifty "National Security Letters"? Our rights have been being raped for years, decades even. I think it all really started going down hill after WWII. I think becoming a superpower made us cocky and allowed our government to get of control. We lost site of our true purpose and what made us special, instead our leaders just got drunk on power like every other countries' had before them.

What about the retired soldier in Texas who was arrested for open carrying a rifle and the arresting officer, when asked, said he was the law/above the law on camera? People think these things are all ok, won't be abused, WAKE UP, they already are! It's not a conspiracy when it has already happened...
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:38 AM   #111
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Why i am happy to live in australia
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:01 AM   #112
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Why i am happy to live in australia
prolly the free kangaroo rides and sexy accents
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:11 AM   #113
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:07 PM   #114
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Why i am happy to live in australia
One day, I will take a vacation down there. And you better let me ride in the pouch of your pet kangaroo.
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