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Old 02-20-2014, 02:09 PM   #31
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This is the unfortunate side effect of mixing business and art. It's pretty discouraging for people who want to make it their career, not to mention scary.

It's sounds like Levine might be a bit of a dick, which is fine, it can happen when people are under pressure and their grand vision is at stake. Part of that though could be the bureaucracy of it all as explained in the article, of which the context was a bit confusing at first, haha. True or not, speculation or otherwise, you don't need to be a fly on the wall in the Irrational Games office to infer some of these problems, I'm sure most studios deal with it on a daily basis.

I thought this bit was interesting, and pretty much sums up what I was describing about making these massive budget games and probably why Levine is interested in scaling back. It's probably what needs to be done to avoid future situations like this.

Someone Who Works In The Industry told me that thanks to Ken Levine's breadth of endless ideas and philosophy of fearlessness and un-planning, Infinite grew far, far over its budget and far, far beyond its scope.
I at least try to wait for all the facts which is why I kinda defended Aliens: Colonial Marines. As a major Aliens fan, I WANTED to love that game so much and the initial trailers screamed glorification. After all the smoke cleared about what happened, I find out Randy Pitchford is a massive shithead for not only hiring a sub-developer so he could continue work on(and push funds from ACM to) Borderlands 2 just as well, outsources the DLC dev on the latter.
I loved BL2 but even I could tell the DLC wasn't as catchy. I never even bothered getting to Tiny Tina's DLC.
Point is, I can understand certain constraints when it comes to developing with time and deadlines. You can't expect to know every little detail without being there and not knowing who dropped what ball.
I wasn't even knocking the studio but you don't have to make The Greatest Game Ever Made. Maybe some of his ideas should've been held back for future products if any. To me, for the first half of the 360 gen, Bioshock WAS the Greatest and I'm not a FPS fan in general. But it captivated me and made me want to play more. I probably would've enjoyed 2 had Irrational headlined it.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:25 PM   #32
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I was gonna give BioShock a shot again, but this is unfortunate news. Good luck to all at Irrational.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:00 PM   #33
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Bioshock 2 turned out to be a lot better than Aliens: Colonial Marines. That is for sure! Now try to keep it on topic, huh?
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:22 PM   #34
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How come everyone thinks Bio 2's multiplayer was sooo bad? Sure, it probably shouldn't have been there in the first place, but for what it was. I found it to be a nice distraction from the campaign. Was it because of the multiplayer achievements maybe? Apart from some occasional host-applied lag, I always had fun with it and couldn't really fault it. Still play it from time to time when someone brings it up in party chat.
I'm one of the few that actually defends BioShock 2's Multiplayer. Not that I think it's a great MP experience because it isn't, there are numerous issues that I don't need to go into here. But I do appreciate the fact that they didn't just tack it on to the game.

They made the MP canonical by having it be the war between the Splicers that destroyed Rapture in the first place. I thought that was a stroke of genius, honestly.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:34 PM   #35
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I'm one of the few that actually defends BioShock 2's Multiplayer. Not that I think it's a great MP experience because it isn't, there are numerous issues that I don't need to go into here. But I do appreciate the fact that they didn't just tack it on to the game.

They made the MP canonical by having it be the war between the Splicers that destroyed Rapture in the first place. I thought that was a stroke of genius, honestly.
Agreed. I think a lot of the hate for Bioshock 2's multiplayer comes from the fact that there were achievements involved. That always pisses people off and you hear about it the most on sites like this that are dedicated to the hunt, elsewhere, not as much. Take for example something like Dead Space 2. That had multiplayer and people thought it was tacked on but there was very little moaning because there wasn't any reason to play it unless you wanted to because there were no achievements attached. That's why multiplayer achievements are bad, it gets people that don't actually want to play showing up to boost and mixes them in with people who play to enjoy it and fucks up the community. That was far from the worst multiplayer game I've ever played.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:43 PM   #36
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Agreed. I think a lot of the hate for Bioshock 2's multiplayer comes from the fact that there were achievements involved. That always pisses people off and you hear about it the most on sites like this that are dedicated to the hunt, elsewhere, not as much. Take for example something like Dead Space 2. That had multiplayer and people thought it was tacked on but there was very little moaning because there wasn't any reason to play it unless you wanted to because there were no achievements attached. That's why multiplayer achievements are bad, it gets people that don't actually want to play showing up to boost and mixes them in with people who play to enjoy it and fucks up the community. That was far from the worst multiplayer game I've ever played.
Walter, do you ever stop making great points?

Most of the complaints about the multiplayer I heard from this very site and agree, it's the achievements that cause so many people grief. I had 2 friends that owned it and said way back "let's try it". None of us cared enough about the achievements and we had a blast. Still go back to it from time to time. Dead Space 2's multiplayer is a good example. No achievements, so anyone who didn't like it just turned it off and that was that. Never to be thought about again.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:20 PM   #37
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Agreed. I think a lot of the hate for Bioshock 2's multiplayer comes from the fact that there were achievements involved. That always pisses people off and you hear about it the most on sites like this that are dedicated to the hunt, elsewhere, not as much. Take for example something like Dead Space 2. That had multiplayer and people thought it was tacked on but there was very little moaning because there wasn't any reason to play it unless you wanted to because there were no achievements attached. That's why multiplayer achievements are bad, it gets people that don't actually want to play showing up to boost and mixes them in with people who play to enjoy it and fucks up the community. That was far from the worst multiplayer game I've ever played.
While I realize that people tend to bitch about online achievements in general, BioShock 2's MP had some that deserved the bitching.

Case in point: Territorial.

This tasks the player with winning a public match on each of the 6 new maps that came with the Rapture Metro DLC. Problem is, that even if everyone in the lobby has the DLC, as soon as a single person enters who doesn't, the levels will never come up. And to compound that, even if everyone in the session does have the DLC, the maps come up randomly, mixed in with the standard maps. So it takes forever to even get one to appear - and then you have to win on it.

Fuck this achievement. Seriously.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:37 PM   #38
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Agreed. I think a lot of the hate for Bioshock 2's multiplayer comes from the fact that there were achievements involved. That always pisses people off and you hear about it the most on sites like this that are dedicated to the hunt, elsewhere, not as much. Take for example something like Dead Space 2. That had multiplayer and people thought it was tacked on but there was very little moaning because there wasn't any reason to play it unless you wanted to because there were no achievements attached. That's why multiplayer achievements are bad, it gets people that don't actually want to play showing up to boost and mixes them in with people who play to enjoy it and fucks up the community. That was far from the worst multiplayer game I've ever played.
I would've brought up DS2 but it seems making a comparison = off topic to the sensitive types With that, I enjoy an innovative MP that gives each side a unique sense of gameplay. While the Necro's were clunky as hell and seemingly weak, a lot of their strategies were great ideas. I enjoyed it but it did have that "tacked on" feeling. Also, the shining star for DS2 was the SP opening up a bit more than DS1. Bioshock 2 tried to push for it's MP more while the SP honestly did remain "more of the same".
While I thought BS's MP was bad, I also never said it was the worst. It's presentation was fine, it's execution was not. Online achievements weren't the bother for me. It was the splicers. One of the modes I enjoyed was where one person eventually becomes the Big Daddy. But again, it wasn't good enough that I would be willing to go back to it for any reason. It just wasn't innovative enough.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:59 AM   #39
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Yep.

BioShock Has 'Many Untold Stories' for 2K to Tell
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:26 AM   #40
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Wow.

Not surprised, and I find that quite…I don't know the word, annoying? Eh.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:35 AM   #41
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Wow.

Not surprised, and I find that quite…I don't know the word, annoying? Eh.
I don't know, I already commented earlier in the thread that I thought Bioshock 2 came out quite well for being outsourced and I think 2K does a great job with games in general. I guess I like knowing that some passion went in to a game that I like rather than churning out sequels to cash in on a name. Until they announce something and I can form an opinion, I'll remain skeptical. I also felt like Infinite wrapped it up enough for a very long time, if not entirely. I get it, it's an infinite universe and the series could go anywhere. Doesn't mean it should.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:35 AM   #42
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Bummer. Was hoping for HD remake for the X1.
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:25 AM   #43
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I don't know, I already commented earlier in the thread that I thought Bioshock 2 came out quite well for being outsourced and I think 2K does a great job with games in general. I guess I like knowing that some passion went in to a game that I like rather than churning out sequels to cash in on a name. Until they announce something and I can form an opinion, I'll remain skeptical. I also felt like Infinite wrapped it up enough for a very long time, if not entirely. I get it, it's an infinite universe and the series could go anywhere. Doesn't mean it should.
Eh, I personally skipped over BioShock 2 for the fact that is was outsourced, resorted to watching a walkthrough online and didn't think too much of it :/

But I'm of the same mindset as you, just because the series can be expanded on, doesn't mean it should.

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Bummer. Was hoping for HD remake for the X1.
The game was already in HD, lol.
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:28 AM   #44
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The game was already in HD, lol.
Fine! How about updated for X1 .
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Old 02-22-2014, 05:14 AM   #45
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I wonder if Microsoft will make an approach to buy the studio, then decide not to and in a few years end up regretting it? They've done it a few times in the last couple of years, so it wouldn't surprise me.
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Old 02-22-2014, 05:26 AM   #46
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Fine! How about updated for X1 .
That makes more sense
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:10 AM   #47
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Eh, I personally skipped over BioShock 2 for the fact that is was outsourced, resorted to watching a walkthrough online and didn't think too much of it :/

But I'm of the same mindset as you, just because the series can be expanded on, doesn't mean it should.



The game was already in HD, lol.
While I know I'd play another Bioshock game, it wouldn't hurt to leave it at Infinite. At least for a while..
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:31 AM   #48
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@Flibbity floid.

Gears of war wasn't the only series Epic made. It's predecessor Unreal tournament pushed xbox live further then ever at the time. I hope Ken follows the motto If you love something when the time comes set it free. In the same way the main epic masterminds said good bye to unreal tournament then gears of war to go and make a new ip. I hope ken finds something new he can create with joy.

From what I read ken doesn't seem like a dick. He said the reason mp wasn't in Bioshock or infinite was because people would play it for a week then go back to battlefield, Cod, and Halo. That took honesty an balls to say that
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:44 AM   #49
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I wonder if Microsoft will make an approach to buy the studio, then decide not to and in a few years end up regretting it? They've done it a few times in the last couple of years, so it wouldn't surprise me.
You know, I was thinking earlier about them buying companies. You know what would have been a good one for Microsoft to acquire? Telltale Games. Their games are hugely popular right now and the style of games that they make could actually utilize Kinect for something that doesn't suck. It'd be great to play The Walking Dead or The Wolf Among Us just using voice commands.
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:48 AM   #50
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You know, I was thinking earlier about them buying companies. You know what would have been a good one for Microsoft to acquire? Telltale Games. Their games are hugely popular right now and the style of games that they make could actually utilize Kinect for something that doesn't suck. It'd be great to play The Walking Dead or The Wolf Among Us just using voice commands.
That's a great idea. But Microsoft is still taking shit for Fighter Within, and the reason that failed so hard is because MS said themselves that the Kinect was now twice as powerful and all that shit, but it still sucked. The Kinect works with the console, but not with the games.

Honestly, the fact that we automatically expect Kinect games to suck is the nail in Kinect games' coffins.
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:57 AM   #51
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If the next episode of Walking Dead and Wolf Among Us featured Kinect as an optional feature. Surely that would put a positive spin on Kinect long enough to make everyone forget about Fighter Within?

Pretending the next Bioshock game featured Kinect and it some how worked, I'd welcome it. Not sure how character movement would work, but none of that on rails shite thank you.
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:44 AM   #52
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Irrational Games have made some great games in my opinion.

I really liked Bioshock 1 and did not mind at all Bishock 2 even if the story wasn't as mind blowing. The MP was tacked on despite the little story they had going with splicers testing equipment. I never really disliked it but the balance was off and the grinding involved was over the top.

It is sad that they are dismantled but they ended everything with a bang I think. I really liked Infinite and hope the last piece of DLC will be great.

Not really sure as to why Levine had to gut his company just because he himself wanted to scale down. Hard to understand the logic behind this. I really hope that 2K getting the rights to the Bioshock franchise will be a good thing. I keep my fingers crossed that they don't start churning out games just because they can.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:15 PM   #53
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Sad that people are losing there jobs at this difficult period. From what I heard bioshock was amazing so hoping they can recreate a different game that is just as good.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:03 PM   #54
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However, those affected by recent events and time spent at the studio over the past decade have provided a sense of what led to the end of Irrational. According to those with whom we spoke, the closure was the combined result of unfettered creative freedom, lower-than-expected sales, the butting of heads between Levine and his employees and the unrealistic expectations of big-budget game development.

It was to many a disappointing end to a studio that sought, in the words of those who worked there, to make a mark on the world and that fostered, from its top level, a philosophical viewpoint that it could and should make the absolute best video games.

But in the end, the strengths of Irrational Games were inextricably bound to its weaknesses.
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2K Marin was scheduled to create at least the first part of planned downloadable content. But just after BioShock Infinite's release in March 2013 — as Marin approached alpha on this first piece of DLC — it became clear to senior employees at Irrational that the final product would be unacceptable. Irrational had already taken responsibility for the third piece of DLC, then the second, and now it would need to handle all three pieces.

2K MARIN WAS SCHEDULED TO CREATE AT LEAST THE FIRST PART OF PLANNED DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT

The studio had, according to a former employee, about nine weeks to finish Clash in the Clouds, the first add-on to Infinite. It was a wholly new project — 2K Marin's work, which one source says could have seen Infinite's floating city crashing in some capacity into the ocean, was scrapped entirely.

The timing conflicted with the schedules of individual employees, who were scattered across the world: some at the annual Game Developers Conference, others still on vacation.
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Most of the team learned about the closure on Tuesday, Feb. 18, less than two hours before the statement was made public. Some people within the studio knew in advance, namely those who would be moving onto Levine's next project, but they kept mum.

Everyone gathered in the kitchen slash common area where team meetings were regularly held, sitting on stools and fold-out chairs from the kitchen.

Levine, standing before the group, read from a piece of a paper. In most meetings, he spoke from memory or improvised. A pre-planned speech was atypical.

He transitioned from the introduction about the company's history into details about the company's closure. The room was quiet; there were no outbursts.

"There was a willful disbelief," says one source. "Some submitted to the idea that the company would live forever because they had shipped BioShock."

According to sources, Levine's hands were shaking while he read the announcement. He offered one-on-one time with employees and said he would write recommendations. "It was really nice and really sympathetic," says a source. "They gave us as much info as we could really handle at the time."

When Levine finished the speech, he quietly left and the operations team took over the meeting, explaining the logistics behind the closure.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/6/5474...shock-infinite
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:06 PM   #55
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[qote]However, those affected by recent events and time spent at the studio over the past decade have provided a sense of what led to the end of Irrational. According to those with whom we spoke, the closure was the combined result of unfettered creative freedom, lower-than-expected sales, the butting of heads between Levine and his employees and the unrealistic expectations of big-budget game development.

It was to many a disappointing end to a studio that sought, in the words of those who worked there, to make a mark on the world and that fostered, from its top level, a philosophical viewpoint that it could and should make the absolute best video games.

But in the end, the strengths of Irrational Games were inextricably bound to its weaknesses.
http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/6/5474...shock-infinite[/QUOTE]
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:12 PM   #56
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Your BB code is fucked up.
Yeah, I got it. thx
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Old 03-07-2014, 04:06 AM   #57
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I wonder if Microsoft will make an approach to buy the studio, then decide not to and in a few years end up regretting it? They've done it a few times in the last couple of years, so it wouldn't surprise me.
I don't think that's possible; 2K owns the rights to the remnants of the studio & the Bioshock series.

If MS is buying anyone it should be Remedy & Undead Studios (when their current contract with MS is up).
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:32 PM   #58
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I just hope another studio doesn't try to take it on because it just won't be as good (unless it was Rockstar because I'm sure they can make anything amazing)
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:02 AM   #59
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Damn, what a shame to see them go. I loved Bioshock games. Hope the employees continue to make great games at the very least.
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:06 AM   #60
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Sure there wont be another good bioshock but there will be another horrible one, Ex.halo 4 COD gears of war.
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