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Jet1337
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Or is Bethesda dumbing down every Elder Scrolls title they come out with?

 

In Daggerfall you could scale any vertical surface and spend hours moving from one part of the landmass to the other. You could also get lost in dungeons for hours.

 

Morrowind was at the peak of the technical shit. You could literally kill every NPC in the game, wear individual armor pieces ( excluding boots ), and have access to many different spells and weapons like levitation, crossbows, and teleportation spells that weren't in any other ES title.

 

When I heard that boots and cuirasses were being combined I nearly shat myself in disappointment. Their excuse ( Bethesda ) was that it was to allow for more different armors to exist in the game and possibly more character on-screen at once. Okay...now they're cutting more spells out of the game, eliminating skills, and turning the game into something more action-oriented than role-playing.

 

That's fine, but why can't you have both? Wouldn't it be cool to be able to fly around using a levitation spell while fighting a dragon? Or what about being able to sever an opponent's cuirass and have the chance to impale or behead them? I've heard that you'll be able to decapitate via a perk, but come on! You have to be retarded NOT to know how to decapitate something or someone, especially if you're this legendary dragonslayer.

 

What are your takes on this?

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It's not just Bethesda, it's video games period.

 

Softcore gamers have entered the scene and developers see a HUGE cash opportunity making games to suit those who cannot handle immense and difficult games.

 

Some companies stick to their roots, and others evolve with the masses. In the long run, it's about making a game that will sell. Many new-gamers, (if they can suitably be called such), most likely will not find a difficult game entertaining. Or even one with immense amounts of detail (not art-wise, but gameplay). It's overwhelming for them. The newer generations are dumbing down, and America is fucked (perhaps even most of the rest of the world?)

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It seems like Bethesda is subtracting and adding the more I think about it.

 

I think the question I should be asking is if you're satisfied with the subtractions of being able to levitate, use crossbows and polearms, and being able to be a lycanthrope to the additions of being able to get married, chop wood, and catch fish. >_>

 

It's not just Bethesda, it's video games period.

 

Softcore gamers have entered the scene and developers see a HUGE cash opportunity making games to suit those who cannot handle immense and difficult games.

 

I totally agree. In Morrowind you had no waypoint system for quests. You were given directions and you pretty much had to think for yourself. Games these days you have the deciding done for you. It's pretty retarded, but at the same time it's like I feel smarter than 90% of the gamers out there, so fuck 'em. xD

Edited by Jet1337
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Yea its you. Oblivion was a great game and I personally love it. One of my all time favorite games. It had flaws, glitches, bad voice acting and some ugly people. plus it was hard to get the characters to look how you would rally want so I always went with the Argonian. I will probablly do the same with this game. if I am able to change my skin tone I will be red, make the eyes larger, further apart, make the snout stick out further and give him some spikes. make him look like a true dragonborn.

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I too loved Oblivion, but I think some of you may be misinterpreting the OP's point.

 

He is claiming, or asking rather, why can the game not have the best of both worlds? They didn't use nearly all of the disc space potential, (afaik).

 

I don't think anyone should take offense to this thread, or get defensive. It's a legitimate question and I agree with the guy.

 

This doesn't mean I won't love Skyrim in all of its present glory, because I will, no doubt. But, I too miss the awesome-sauce of Morrowind and wish for some of its missing elements to return.

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Yeah, I'm not saying I won't love Skyrim for what it is. I just think that they could've added more to the game or bring back some of the better things from the TES series. It doesn't feel the same, to me at least, playing a TES game without levitation, spears, ridiculous jump spells, etc...

 

The population of Elder Scroll players can be divided up into two classes: those who have played before Oblivion, and those who have played after it. I'm with the former. I'd like to see the opinions of the latter and I would like to non-aggressively argue with them.

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I do agree but I also must say that I am glad they took the spell system and changed it. I didn't see the point in having spells that were the same identical style yet only increased in radius and damage. The way it is now seems much more logical.

 

I enjoy Morrowind & Oblivion. Oblivion more though because of the huge gap in time between the making of the games. It allowed for much better graphics, frame rate issues were still a slight problem but were not bothersome as they were in Morrowind.

 

I think Skyrim will be a vast improvement. I don't really care for levitation spells or anything along those lines but I guess only use spells you want and if you got to use a spell you dislike then just use it quickly, do the job and ditch it til its need again.

 

I personally can't wait for the game to be out. Not much longer now.

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You see, this is the problem.

If developers don't change anything, people bitch and moan about how they can't innovate and they are rehashing the same game every time. (e.g. Call of Duty)

If developers change things, people bitch and moan about how they ruined their favourite franchise. (e.g. Dragon Age 2)

If you don't like Skyrim, just play Daggerfall and Morrowind.

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you Morrowind elitists and your levitation spell... do you not see why they removed that from the game? It's pretty obvious at least from where I stand.

 

If you have a spell like levitation in the game building a game world where this spell does not BREAK every facet of the adventure is extremely difficult and in some ways impossible. I'm personally surprised they put the spell in, in the first place.

 

Not to mention they also removed it from Oblivion specifically because they wanted to wall off the cities.

 

You see, this is the problem.

If developers don't change anything, people bitch and moan about how they can't innovate and they are rehashing the same game every time. (e.g. Call of Duty)

If developers change things, people bitch and moan about how they ruined their favourite franchise. (e.g. Dragon Age 2)

If you don't like Skyrim, just play Daggerfall and Morrowind.

this is so true...

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You see, this is the problem.

If developers don't change anything, people bitch and moan about how they can't innovate and they are rehashing the same game every time. (e.g. Call of Duty)

If developers change things, people bitch and moan about how they ruined their favourite franchise. (e.g. Dragon Age 2)

If you don't like Skyrim, just play Daggerfall and Morrowind.

 

Valid arguement. Its good that Bethesda want to try new ideas, some may be popular, some may not, but that's the way it goes. I'd rather have no ideas implemented than play a re-skinned Oblivion.

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How would a levitation spell break Skyrim? I've used it plenty of times in Morrowind and it hasn't broken anything. It's not a game-breaking spell as you people are led to believe. For one, to really be a usefull spell, you have to create it at 100 to 100 and the most magicka my character has at level 140 is 110 and that includes the Mentor's Ring I have and it requires like 110 magicka to cast. Do you realize your magicka doesn't regenerate like it does in Oblivion? So with all that aside, this spell only lasts for 6 seconds and you don't get very far with it and since there are Cliffracers EVERYWHERE, it's not really an escape option from combat. There are actually dungeons that require levitation to fully explore, mostly to get to the hidden areas where all the good shit is stashed.

 

Also, why wouldn't they include polearms and crossbows back into the series? I'm tired of having to use the same shortsword/axe. I want some variety. And I'm pretty sure the earliest weapons constructed were spears and not greatswords so...wtf? Not to mention that since they're putting Dwemer ruins back in, along with the automaton creatures, why wouldn't there be crossbows?

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Also, why wouldn't they include polearms and crossbows back into the series? I'm tired of having to use the same shortsword/axe. I want some variety. And I'm pretty sure the earliest weapons constructed were spears and not greatswords so...wtf? Not to mention that since they're putting Dwemer ruins back in, along with the automaton creatures, why wouldn't there be crossbows?

 

I think they did that because its hard for the animation to work really well for the spears and pole arms, about the crossbow they (Bethesda) already said that the bow would be a little overpowered so if you put a crossbow in it, it would have been totally overpowered. the animation for the spears etc are difficult to get it right in such games thats what i think at least.

 

As for the levitation spell but then you would have a cheat for unlimited magicka (didn't spell that right)and then you can do is for long as you wish and fly everywhere, Bethesda fans (those who do not cheat) wont do that but still.

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You see, this is the problem.

If developers don't change anything, people bitch and moan about how they can't innovate and they are rehashing the same game every time. (e.g. Call of Duty)

If developers change things, people bitch and moan about how they ruined their favourite franchise. (e.g. Dragon Age 2)

If you don't like Skyrim, just play Daggerfall and Morrowind.

 

This is true for almost any game. Die hard fans will want past elements and be sour when some elements are removed and new elements are implemented. This doesn't mean that those same die hard fans will not or do not enjoy playing the franchise still.

 

The ole, "Don't like it, don't play it" is a cop out in a discussion like this. It's obvious enough that one shouldn't have need to say it, but, someone always does. It's merely a hypothetical conversation on why Bethesda could not add in such features from past titles to appease their long running, hardcore fans. Not a bitch-rage-fest/ nerd boycott of a game that we ourselves will love and enjoy anyways.

 

you Morrowind elitists and your levitation spell... do you not see why they removed that from the game? It's pretty obvious at least from where I stand.

 

Have you ever utilized the levitation spell in Morrowind, let alone played the title?

 

I think this summarizes your complaints nicely, lol.

 

Good stuff.

 

I think they did that because its hard for the animation to work really well for the spears and pole arms, about the crossbow they (Bethesda) already said that the bow would be a little overpowered so if you put a crossbow in it, it would have been totally overpowered. the animation for the spears etc are difficult to get it right in such games thats what i think at least.

 

If this were true, it's a pretty low cop-out. Leaving out weapons like spears because the animation might be difficult? They put it "self-thinking" dragons, but cannot quite get a spear thrust down right?

 

The power of a crossbow can easily be balanced by a longer reloading time. Making it a one shot, and then change weapon type of weapon. Good for stealth players, perhaps.

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I don't think anybody here will disagree that Oblivion was a great game. It was a grand experience that was worth living. But it was also fundamentally different from the experience that Morrowind and Daggerfall were and a large part of the experience and variety was killed because of it. Morrowind, sure, it was extremely unrealistic when you could make fireballs that engulfed entire towns, leviate into the sky at super speeds, and bash the citizens of Ald'Run from above with a severed nord leg, but that was also a large part of the fun behind morrowind. Breaking beyond the barriers of what the developers expected players to do and making our own way in the game how we wanted (This was also a problem with the Halo series from H2 onward. People found things like Hog Launching and Bungie went and made things like the Scarab Gun that were designed for people to go and do this stuff. It's simply not as enjoyable as breaking the game itself. Halo: Reach in particular screwed it up because of the damn killzones everywhere that made the Jetpack pointless.)

 

Honestly I think it's a mistake to be catering to these dumbass casual gamers because they're never going to learn. Japan is godly at gaming because they make their games harder, not easier and the people playing them strove to overcome them (Want proof: Look at Dark Souls compared to Demon Souls and Ninja Gaiden 2 compared to the first one.) Here in the states, casual gamers find something they like because it doesn't require them to figure anything out and it gives them the illusion that they're good (you show me one CoD player that doesn't think they're an FPS god.) Entire generations of gamers before these casuals managed to game just fine the way things were, but seemingly the people starting with the PS3/360 generation of consoles couldn't work their way out of a butterfly net without somebody there to hold their hands.

 

There's no point in removing any skills and there's no point in combining any either. As far as leveling systems go in an RPG, Elder Scrolls is already pretty simple and realistic. Use this object, build this skill. If you wanted to be good with Hammers, use hammers. Good with daggers, use daggers. Now if you're good with a dagger, that claymore should be a piece of cake for you. And while I think about it, stop taking out weapons. There's no purpose for it. If somebody wants to use a crossbow, pike, spear, or throwing star/dagger, I don't see what the issue is with including them. Morrowind did it in 2001, so there's no reason why they can't do it now in 2011.

 

Levitation I understand being taken out beause the cities are seperate cells from the HUB world and the placeholders are ugly, but than again, why not just make a load screen when you pass over the wall to phase you into the city. I certainly won't complain. But why remove things like Divine and Almisvi intervention? And what about Mark and Summon spells? Be a lot more enjoyable than getting to the end of a dungeon and having to walk all the way back to the entrance with NOTHING to kill or do.

 

@Ghost: Rehashes are just that. Rehases. No new features, no new gameplay devices. you literally play the same game with a new storyline. Even worse, a game like COD where there's barely any variety to begin with. Elder Scrolls has enough variety in a game to where even if it was just a rehash, you're still going to get hundreds of hours to do whatever the hell you want and never have the same experience twice. Now with the Morrowind to Oblivion/Skyrim issue, it's not that they're making changes and we're not happy. It's that they're REMOVING content. Some things need to be fine-tuned, I understand, but like the old saying goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." So many features in Morrowind worked absolutely fine, but for absolutely no reason, Oblivion just didn't have them. The purpose of a sequel is to fix the broken features and add more content than the previous game had (for example, Halo 2 was Halo, but with Xbox Live servers, Dual-Wielding, Vehicle Hijacking, and all new weapons and vehicles. The ONLY thing removed from Halo 2 was the godly pistol and the Assault rifle, both of which were sore bitching points from the fans.)

Edited by DarkReign2021
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Or is Bethesda dumbing down every Elder Scrolls title they come out with?

 

In Daggerfall you could scale any vertical surface and spend hours moving from one part of the landmass to the other. You could also get lost in dungeons for hours.

 

Morrowind was at the peak of the technical shit. You could literally kill every NPC in the game, wear individual armor pieces ( excluding boots ), and have access to many different spells and weapons like levitation, crossbows, and teleportation spells that weren't in any other ES title.

 

When I heard that boots and cuirasses were being combined I nearly shat myself in disappointment. Their excuse ( Bethesda ) was that it was to allow for more different armors to exist in the game and possibly more character on-screen at once. Okay...now they're cutting more spells out of the game, eliminating skills, and turning the game into something more action-oriented than role-playing.

 

That's fine, but why can't you have both? Wouldn't it be cool to be able to fly around using a levitation spell while fighting a dragon? Or what about being able to sever an opponent's cuirass and have the chance to impale or behead them? I've heard that you'll be able to decapitate via a perk, but come on! You have to be retarded NOT to know how to decapitate something or someone, especially if you're this legendary dragonslayer.

 

What are your takes on this?

 

I miss levitation, and mark/recall. but bethesda took them out because people would just run away from battle. which pisses me off because they could easily dissable them when fighting and having enemies nearby just like fast travel. they removed so much fun stuff......

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I miss levitation, and mark/recall. but bethesda took them out because people would just run away from battle. which pisses me off because they could easily dissable them when fighting and having enemies nearby just like fast travel. they removed so much fun stuff......

 

This is something I don't get about Bethesda. They're making single player games. No co-op, no multiplayer. There's no need to balance any of the weapons to make them fair. Beyond ensuring something isn't completely worthless and broken, who cares? If a player gets a sword that makes him God, why not let him? It doesn't hurt anybody but himself for ruining the experience? Same with levitation. If I want to fly over a gate they don't want me behind, who cares? That's my choice. or if I want to mark and recall to run away from a fight, that's my choice too. Until they introduce Co-op or multiplayer into the Elder Scrolls series (which I hope is never) than the players should be allowed to be as overpowered and godly as they want (especially since in Morrowind and Oblivion you were pretty much supposed to be a god anyway.)

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Probably the most funnest thing about Morrowind I miss is making that 100-point jump spell with max acrobatics and jumping halfway across Vardenfell for the hell of it. They totally nerfed Fortify Acrobatics in Oblivion and now they removed it in Skyrim. :( They DO take all the fun shit out of it...well most of it. I do remember making this super-speed potion in Oblivion that got me from one side of Cyrodill to the other in like 3 minutes. The game almost couldn't keep up!

 

I guess Bethesda is trying to make Skyrim more realistic and gritty than over-the-top fantasy. I just think it's pretty dumb to cut out content that would make sense like spears and throwing weapons. I guess we'll be waiting another five years to see if spears make a return. lol

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That was one of the purposes of levitation. It was meant as a way to get to otherwise hard or unreachable places, or to skip over areas you didn't want to traverse, fairly quickly. It's not game breaking, you can't skip over the main quests or anything because you had a few levitation scrolls, it's just another way to play Morrowind. The only reason it was removed was because oblivion had to seal off the cities to save memory.

 

EDIT: also it could give an archer a huge advantage in a fight. It was always fun to watch melee NPCs run for cover when I sit just beyond their reach with a bow.

Edited by god_that_failed
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yes, and yes. though it has been a few years but I remember being able to skip through a lot of things because of the spell.

 

I just beat Morrowind GOTY for the one hundred time and all the levitation spell does is let you go over a mountain instead of spending ten minutes running around it. As for crossbows they fire so slowly I don't like them same with spears and polearms the attack are so slow its to bothersome lol.

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I just beat Morrowind GOTY for the one hundred time and all the levitation spell does is let you go over a mountain instead of spending ten minutes running around it. As for crossbows they fire so slowly I don't like them same with spears and polearms the attack are so slow its to bothersome lol.

 

You say this like it's a bad thing. We're talking about a game where a single playthrough can consume several hundred hours. Wouldn't you want to shave off the boring 10-minute periods of uneventfully walking around mountains? Not to mention it also made island hopping around the edges of the island more effective since we aren't allowed to have boats or anything like that.

 

Edit: Almost forgot, it was also useful for navigating some of the Telvanni buildings since they had tunnels and access points that weren't reachable without it.

 

Besides, one of the most badass fights I ever had in that game involved levitation. I believe it was a a grandmaster from the Mages Guild. We faced off in an arena match in Vivec. We both used levitation and we both threw spells at each other until we ran out of magicka. Than it was an airborne blade fight to the death. We were neck and neck in our abilities. If the combat system had been more like Oblivion's, it would've been a truly spectacular fight to watch as well as fight.

Edited by DarkReign2021
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