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The IWC has been bitching about Roman Reigns since he won the Rumble, and then retained his right to main event Mania 31 at the expense of the Internet's Boyfriend Daniel Bryan.

Ever since Extreme Rules, he's been getting way more cheers.

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Most likely because he's been seen helping Ambrose, but yeah, the idiots seem to be shutting up now, thankfully.

 

Honestly, want him to win, he eventually does, hate him because he won. IWC =/= smart.

 

I think people just resented the speed of his push once the rocket was strapped on. People were like, "Woah! We like this guy and we want him pushed...but slow it down!"

 

Also, with Daniel just coming back, everyone expected and wanted him to get a shot at the title he never lost. So they were pissed about that not happening.

 

Daniel getting hurt again was the best thing that ever happened to Reigns.

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I think people just resented the speed of his push once the rocket was strapped on. People were like, "Woah! We like this guy and we want him pushed...but slow it down!"

 

Also, with Daniel just coming back, everyone expected and wanted him to get a shot at the title he never lost. So they were pissed about that not happening.

 

Daniel getting hurt again was the best thing that ever happened to Reigns.

I was thinking the exact same thing about Bryan as I typed my last post. Daniel getting hurt was a blessing for Reigns.

 

Reigns and Ambrose were put back together just so people would start cheering for Reigns. That's not a bad thing, but it's why it's happening. They know Ambrose is second in popularity only to D-Bry, so they started having Reigns help him to get him over as a babyface. Because if you go back through the last year, Ambrose and Reigns barely worked together at all.

Edited by Melfar
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Most likely because he's been seen helping Ambrose, but yeah, the idiots seem to be shutting up now, thankfully.

 

Honestly, want him to win, he eventually does, hate him because he won. IWC =/= smart.

 

The IWC still thinks John Cena bashing is "cool", it isn't, it was about 8 years ago, but not now.

 

They are also all crying into their neck beards that Daniel Bryan's career is pretty much over, he says it isn't, he reckons'he'll be back, I doubt it, and even if he does come back, chances are he'll get injured again somewhere down the line·

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The IWC still thinks John Cena bashing is "cool", it isn't, it was about 8 years ago, but not now.

 

Yeah because god forbid people actually have a problem with the guy and what he's doing to the business. Those people, those that dislike him and can back up their reasons, are just haters. http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/legacy/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

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I think people just resented the speed of his push once the rocket was strapped on. People were like, "Woah! We like this guy and we want him pushed...but slow it down!"

 

Also, with Daniel just coming back, everyone expected and wanted him to get a shot at the title he never lost. So they were pissed about that not happening.

 

Daniel getting hurt again was the best thing that ever happened to Reigns.

But the same thing happened with Cena, and yet they kept his rise going.

 

And I like Daniel Bryan, I've followed his career, but, I mean, I'm kind of tired of him right now.

The IWC still thinks John Cena bashing is "cool", it isn't, it was about 8 years ago, but not now.

 

They are also all crying into their neck beards that Daniel Bryan's career is pretty much over, he says it isn't, he reckons'he'll be back, I doubt it, and even if he does come back, chances are he'll get injured again somewhere down the line·

Yeah, it's sad. Just like Edge as well. Shame.

Yeah because god forbid people actually have a problem with the guy and what he's doing to the business. Those people, those that dislike him and can back up their reasons, are just haters. http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/legacy/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

 

And they must hate the exposure he's giving the business, the tickets he's selling, the merchandise he sells as well.

 

He's not my favourite wrestler by a long shot, but he gives his all day in and day out. He abuses his position, I'll grant you, but he does good business. Or rather, he IS good business.

 

Look, Hogan was the red, white, and blue flagbearer that the company used to rally behind, to get fans and win points, they're just doing the same now with Cena. I'm just looking forward to when Trips takes full control, and Cena has to actually fight for his spotlight.

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#1: People forget that the WWE is a publicly traded corporation in an industry with massive negative stigmas. Cena is good for the corporate image.

 

#2: Cena sells tickets. Lots of tickets.

 

#3: Cena generates ad revenue. Lots and lots of ad revenue.

 

#4: Cena generates ratings. The TV deals negotiated off those ratings probably make up one of the largest revenue streams for the company.

 

#5: Cena sells merchandise. Obscene amounts of merchandise.

 

#6: When they aren't telling the same old "Super Cena" story, he can actually wrestle. Matches where you honestly think Cena can lose are often some of the best matches on the card.

 

#7: No one gets the crowd reactions he gets on a consistent basis. Everyone in the building is engaged in some way or another when Cena is out.

 

The "haters" have a few legitimate beefs. To often his matches are just a "Super Cena" story with average at best wrestling. Heck, even a great match like the Owens match had to many Super Cena moments. Also, his booking hurts other careers. No one else is given the opportunity to try to prove they can earn as much money for the company as Cena. And when someone tries to take that opportunity, they are usually slapped down. Making Vince look like a hypocrite whenever he takes about wrestlers stepping up and making their opportunities themselves.

 

The simple fact is that Cena makes the company look good to investers, gives the company a positive image to the general public and generates tons of money. You could throw out that graph of earnings that seems to show earnings down during the times Cena held the big belt in like 2013-2014, but there are to many variables involved to logically say that the reason was Cena. It can more easily be argued that earnings would have been even worse if it wasn't Cena.

 

I don't like the way Cena is booked. I feel like at this point in his career he could lose a lot more matches without hurting the credibility of his character one bit. In the long term, him burying younger talent could hurt the WWE. However, it is pretty much impossible to argue that he isn't what is "best for business" right now.

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And they must hate the exposure he's giving the business,

 

Well that's subjectional isn't it? How much exposure has Cena given the business? There's no way he's done more then Austin or The Rock, so it's not like Cena came along and suddenly gave the WWE the exposure they were craving.

 

the tickets he's selling, the merchandise he sells as well.

 

Why can't they hate him for making money? Just because he does his job doesn't mean they can't dislike the guy. One of my bosses is a piece of shit to people, but he does his work and does it well, that doesn't mean I can't hate his fucking guts.

 

He's not my favourite wrestler by a long shot, but he gives his all day in and day out. He abuses his position, I'll grant you, but he does good business. Or rather, he IS good business.

 

See this is debatable. He's ruined many up and comers, which IS NOT good business. Look at the Nexus, came in strong, make a hell of an initial statement, and then he buried them at SummerSlam. Even Jericho and Edge argued that Cena should have lost to Barrett at the end of SummerSlam 2010.

 

Speaking of SummerSlam 2010, it saw a decrease in buys by 19,000, and Cena was the man standing tall at the end of 2010 instead of 2009. This is a small bit of proof that the year before when Cena lost it made more money then the next year when he won. This is not good business.

 

Look, Hogan was the red, white, and blue flagbearer that the company used to rally behind, to get fans and win points, they're just doing the same now with Cena. I'm just looking forward to when Trips takes full control, and Cena has to actually fight for his spotlight.

 

Yeah I know about Hogan, and I get what they're doing, the problem is, it's not working the same way and instead of seeing that and doing something different, they keep trying. The SummerSlam buyrate I mentioned is a great example of how Cena being like Hogan isn't working, and Forbes of all places proved that Cena being champion from a financial perspective is not what's best for business. And keep in mind this is about MONEY, not about storylines, this is a fact, JOHN CENA DOES NOT PRODUCE MONEY BEING THE CHAMPION. He did at one time, but that bubble has burst. When CM Punk caught up to him in merch sales, you knew the bubble was gone.

 

#1: People forget that the WWE is a publicly traded corporation in an industry with massive negative stigmas. Cena is good for the corporate image.

 

Sure, but anyone could be if they were given the same chances he has. It's funny that Randy Orton and CM Punk do public appearances (same with The Miz) and do the Make a Wish stuff by they rarely if ever get a feature about it on the website or TV shows. Only Cena does.

 

#2: Cena sells tickets. Lots of tickets.

 

See above.

 

#3: Cena generates ad revenue. Lots and lots of ad revenue.

 

Anyone could if given the same exposure and chance. Cena was a rapping white boy before being transformed into whatever the fuck you wanna call him now. If they put the same power behind someone else, who knows what could happen.

 

#4: Cena generates ratings. The TV deals negotiated off those ratings probably make up one of the largest revenue streams for the company.

 

That's not completely true, you can see above when it comes to buyrates. But there's other examples, such as Raw's rating spiking the night after Edge won the title, or when The Miz won the belt, ratings went up. Cena goes and gets the belt back, in both cases, and ratings go back down to their normal level. Cena stagnates ratings, they don't drop, but they don't spike either.

 

#5: Cena sells merchandise. Obscene amounts of merchandise.

 

So did CM Punk, why couldn't he be plastered everywhere? Oh yeah, because he's not John Cena.

 

#6: When they aren't telling the same old "Super Cena" story, he can actually wrestle. Matches where you honestly think Cena can lose are often some of the best matches on the card.

 

That's subjectional as well, and honestly Cena's not had a match I thought he'd lose in almost ten years. That's the problem they have right now, he's beaten so many people against so many odds there's no way to even believe someone will beat him. They've painted themselves into a corner because it's unbelievable that he'd ever take a loss. And to make it worse, when the does take a loss, the announcers sell it as a fluke or Cena himself comes out the next night not selling anything and laughing and smiling and telling fucking jokes. Great matches involve selling, before, during and after, something Cena knows little about.

 

#7: No one gets the crowd reactions he gets on a consistent basis. Everyone in the building is engaged in some way or another when Cena is out.

 

CM Punk, Randy Orton, Roman Reigns, Daniel Bryan, and even Zach Ryder get just as loud if not louder reactions then Cena, and they have been for years now. It makes me laugh when people try to say no one gets a reaction like Cena does, do you even watch the shows when other people are on? My god, Bryan doesn't even have to be out there for a fucking Yes chant to start and stay there all night. You'd have to be delusional to argue that Cena gets the biggest reaction of the night.

 

The "haters" have a few legitimate beefs. To often his matches are just a "Super Cena" story with average at best wrestling. Heck, even a great match like the Owens match had to many Super Cena moments. Also, his booking hurts other careers. No one else is given the opportunity to try to prove they can earn as much money for the company as Cena. And when someone tries to take that opportunity, they are usually slapped down. Making Vince look like a hypocrite whenever he takes about wrestlers stepping up and making their opportunities themselves.

 

He's ruined the future of the company in most cases. Guys like Barrett and Ryder who could have been long term stars are mid card jokes at best. We're at a time now where being in the mid card is a wasteland, and shows/PPVs rely on main even talent. Back in the 80's and 90's, a mid carder would main even a B or C show anywhere and make money. These days, they barely run five house shows a week, there's no way for guys like Cesaro and Kidd to break out and make money. All the TV time and house show spots go to main eventers. Why Cena would want to kill these guys characters off is beyond me. Even when he's not wrestling against them, he's hurting them.

 

The simple fact is that Cena makes the company look good to investers, gives the company a positive image to the general public and generates tons of money. You could throw out that graph of earnings that seems to show earnings down during the times Cena held the big belt in like 2013-2014, but there are to many variables involved to logically say that the reason was Cena. It can more easily be argued that earnings would have been even worse if it wasn't Cena.

 

I don't like the way Cena is booked. I feel like at this point in his career he could lose a lot more matches without hurting the credibility of his character one bit. In the long term, him burying younger talent could hurt the WWE. However, it is pretty much impossible to argue that he isn't what is "best for business" right now.

 

Nope, we not only just did, but I showed why he's terrible for the business. Hogan at least, at the very fucking least, changed up his act when he saw buyrates and ratings go down. Cena isn't smart enough to do that, and it's a shame when I'm calling Hogan smart, because he's a bigger piece of shit then Cena is.

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I'd quote Jeremy, but it's too long.

 

Basically, what you guys are arguing about, is wrestling finances. And corporate wrestling will not work. There is no way to please everyone when your sponsors can limit you so much.

 

To me, Cena's only good qualities are that he can put on good matches, and he's elevating the U.S. title.

 

The argument that Cena gets the best pops is wrong. Did you hear the crowd during Sami Zayn's debut? What about Daniel Bryan every night? Even Paige (not trying to be sexist, but WWE is a man's promotion, whether or not it's right) gets a huge reaction.

 

Having Cena beat newer wrestlers is not good. Nexus was flat out buried. No other way of describing it. Ryder, Wyatt,,Rusev, Ambrose, Rollins, Ryback, Sandow all lost to Cena in the last 18 months. And Sami Zayn & Rusev (at Wrestlemania only) are the only ones that are even possible to defend, IMO.

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Jeremy, you know as well as anyone that since Vincent K took over promoting the WWE is all about plastering some American ideal everywhere they can. Bret Hart never was pushed the way he deserved because he was Canadian. Hogan, Michaels, Austin, Rock and Cena have all been a either a caricature of an ideal (Hogan, Cena) or the embodiment of some major segment of society at the time (Michaels, Austin, Rock).

 

As soon as the Marine Corp vetoed Randy Orton as "The Marine" (since he was dishonorably discharged essentially for deserting) and as soon as he tested positive for illicit drugs his chance to be a true face was gone.

 

Punk was always to counter-culture to be a true face.

 

Barrett and any other non-American really has no chance.

 

Daniel should have gotten a chance but I honestly think Vince was just having a hard time admitting he was wrong. I don't think Vince really ever wanted Daniel on the roster, he never thought he had a real chance. So Vince was stubborn about pushing him or making him the face. In a lot of ways, Daniel is kind of like Mick Foley in this regard.

 

Look at the three people that appear to have a real chance at being the face moving forwards...The former Shield members. All three could be presented as an all-American hero in some way or another (though Rollins is more destined to be the HHH of the future).

 

I'm not saying this is necessarily what is best for the business moving forwards. It is almost clearly not what is best for the in ring product or even TV right now. But it's worked for Vince for 3 decades now. Until recently the company has done nothing but grow from a financial standpoint. Vince feels like he needs a true "American Hero" to sell his product to corporate sponsors, investors and board members. I think we both agree this viewpoint is hurting the product. But I think you know as well as I do why it exists.

Edited by bigbear.
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I'd quote Jeremy, but it's too long.

 

Basically, what you guys are arguing about, is wrestling finances. And corporate wrestling will not work. There is no way to please everyone when your sponsors can limit you so much.

 

To me, Cena's only good qualities are that he can put on good matches, and he's elevating the U.S. title.

 

The argument that Cena gets the best pops is wrong. Did you hear the crowd during Sami Zayn's debut? What about Daniel Bryan every night? Even Paige (not trying to be sexist, but WWE is a man's promotion, whether or not it's right) gets a huge reaction.

 

Having Cena beat newer wrestlers is not good. Nexus was flat out buried. No other way of describing it. Ryder, Wyatt,,Rusev, Ambrose, Rollins, Ryback, Sandow all lost to Cena in the last 18 months. And Sami Zayn & Rusev (at Wrestlemania only) are the only ones that are even possible to defend, IMO.

 

Paige gets a reaction because half the male audience wants to have sex with her (me included).

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Jeremy, you know as well as anyone that since Vincent K took over promoting the WWE is all about plastering some American ideal everywhere they can. Bret Hart never was pushed the way he deserved because he was Canadian. Hogan, Michaels, Austin, Rock and Cena have all been a either a caricature of an ideal (Hogan, Cena) or the embodiment of some major segment of society at the time (Michaels, Austin, Rock).

 

As soon as the Marine Corp vetoed Randy Orton as "The Marine" (since he was dishonorably discharged essentially for deserting) and as soon as he tested positive for illicit drugs his chance to be a true face was gone.

 

Punk was always to counter-culture to be a true face.

 

Barrett and any other non-American really has no chance.

 

Daniel should have gotten a chance but I honestly think Vince was just having a hard time admitting he was wrong. I don't think Vince really ever wanted Daniel on the roster, he never thought he had a real chance. So Vince was stubborn about pushing him or making him the face. In a lot of ways, Daniel is kind of like Mick Foley in this regard.

 

Look at the three people that appear to have a real chance at being the face moving forwards...The former Shield members. All three could be presented as an all-American hero in some way or another (though Rollins is more destined to be the HHH of the future).

 

I'm not saying this is necessarily what is best for the business moving forwards. It is almost clearly not what is best for the in ring product or even TV right now. But it's worked for Vince for 3 decades now. Until recently the company has done nothing but grow from a financial standpoint. Vince feels like he needs a true "American Hero" to sell his product to corporate sponsors, investors and board members. I think we both agree this viewpoint is hurting the product. But I think you know as well as I do why it exists.

 

The debate isn't over my understanding of why Vince does what he does, I understand it. It makes little sense from a financial standpoint, but I understand why and what they're doing.

 

The debate is over people having legit complaints about John Cena, and being able to voice those complaints without being called "haters". I not only stated my issues, I backed them up in a clear and concise manner. Am I just a hater? I think not.

 

Paige gets a reaction because half the male audience wants to have sex with her (me included).

 

We're not talking about why people get a reaction, just that people get as good if not more then Cena.

Edited by JeremyVersion1
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I'd quote Jeremy, but it's too long.

 

Basically, what you guys are arguing about, is wrestling finances. And corporate wrestling will not work. There is no way to please everyone when your sponsors can limit you so much.

 

To me, Cena's only good qualities are that he can put on good matches, and he's elevating the U.S. title.

 

The argument that Cena gets the best pops is wrong. Did you hear the crowd during Sami Zayn's debut? What about Daniel Bryan every night? Even Paige (not trying to be sexist, but WWE is a man's promotion, whether or not it's right) gets a huge reaction.

 

Having Cena beat newer wrestlers is not good. Nexus was flat out buried. No other way of describing it. Ryder, Wyatt,,Rusev, Ambrose, Rollins, Ryback, Sandow all lost to Cena in the last 18 months. And Sami Zayn & Rusev (at Wrestlemania only) are the only ones that are even possible to defend, IMO.

 

Rusev sucks anyway, and Sami Zayn is the Canadian version of Daniel Bryan, the IWC has a man crush on him, but he is too injury prone to make it on the main roster.

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Rusev sucks anyway, and Sami Zayn is the Canadian version of Daniel Bryan, the IWC has a man crush on him, but he is too injury prone to make it on the main roster.

So I guess you'd rather have Cena back in the main event?

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RE Cena

I hate him because he has done more to harm the business than anyone in the 21st century.

 

We all know wrestling is staged. But when its done right we can suspend our disbelief (hate that phrase!) and we can do that because of two things: believable offence and effective selling.

 

In 99% of Cena matches those two things just don't happen.

 

If Cena had come along a decade earlier and his career trajectory had had the exact same path WWE would have been out of business. WCW would have battered them.

 

That brings me to my next point...

 

WWEs main problem is that they have no long term plan for anyone other than Cena and whoever holds the main belt. Everyone else seems to be booked by the week.

 

Stop start pushes have been the key reason to virtually no one breaking out of the mid card. WWE needs to pick 5-6 guys and push them solidly for a year and a half. If they have hiccups on the way stick with them. You will see the benefits eighteen months down the line.

 

I also don't see things being any different when Triple H takes over purely on the basis of him being one of the biggest wrestling politicians of the last twenty years. Yeah he might start signing wrestlers ahead of bodybuilders or models but all it takes is for you to tread on the toes of the man who carries his bags (think I heard the guys called Sean Waltman) and your career is over.

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Meh, anything would be better than seeing Seth "I suck, but HHH is in love with me" Rollins devaluing the belt every week.

If you think Seth Rollins is devaluing the title, then you don't understand how wrestling works. Seth is easily the best wrestler on the main roster. He can fly like the Lucha Dragons, he can be technical, not on the scale of Benoit or Angle, but still a technical wrestler, and he can brawl with the best of them (Ambrose and Harper). Rollins is also the best full-time heel, and will be until he turns face, or Kevin Owens gets called up full-time. He's actually booked like a heel: cheap shots, advantages in numbers, and he wins dirty. He hasn't won a match clean since Wrestlemania, and he's never beat Ambrose clean.

 

If they keep using Rollins like they are, and they keep pushing Ambrose to the moon, with Reigns tailing along behind to become popular, they will have the 3 biggest stars of the future. And if they elevate Sheamus, Ryback, Owens, and others over time, they'll have a ton of stars.

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If you think Seth Rollins is devaluing the title, then you don't understand how wrestling works. Seth is easily the best wrestler on the main roster. He can fly like the Lucha Dragons, he can be technical, not on the scale of Benoit or Angle, but still a technical wrestler, and he can brawl with the best of them (Ambrose and Harper). Rollins is also the best full-time heel, and will be until he turns face, or Kevin Owens gets called up full-time. He's actually booked like a heel: cheap shots, advantages in numbers, and he wins dirty. He hasn't won a match clean since Wrestlemania, and he's never beat Ambrose clean.

 

If they keep using Rollins like they are, and they keep pushing Ambrose to the moon, with Reigns tailing along behind to become popular, they will have the 3 biggest stars of the future. And if they elevate Sheamus, Ryback, Owens, and others over time, they'll have a ton of stars.

 

Meh, I hate Brock Lesnar, but at least the few times he showed up and defended his belt, he won or lost clean, Rollins lost by DQ at Elimination Chamber, and has lost several matches by DQ from interference from either J & J Security or other Authority members (usually Kane).

 

Hardly the mark of a true Champion IMO.

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Meh, I hate Brock Lesnar, but at least the few times he showed up and defended his belt, he won or lost clean, Rollins lost by DQ at Elimination Chamber, and has lost several matches by DQ from interference from either J & J Security or other Authority members (usually Kane).

 

Hardly the mark of a true Champion IMO.

 

Ah I get it, it's your fanboy talking.

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