PlaystationTrophies Got a news tip? tips@x360a.org
Username
Password
 

Go Back   XboxAchievements.com > Xbox 360 Retail Games > Adventure > Tomb Raider
Subscribe    Donate

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2013, 03:39 AM   #31
singhellotaku617
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 41

whereismymind86's Gamercard
Alright NOW we know that mp achievements are confirmed, and there are several, including a max level one, weak

14 for 250g
__________________
singhellotaku617 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 04:32 PM   #32
Takamura Bear
 
Takamura Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,789

Awards Showcase 1,000 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
I know what you were trying to say, and you're just assuming that they've just tacked on MP and put achievements on it as an excuse to play it, yet you don't know that at all for a fact. Maybe they actually think it will work, and people will like it. That's how games with MP are formed to begin with. Nobody ever knows whether their MP will work or not, that's why they have to TRY.

When the game comes out and ends up being nothing special, then you can say that they most likely tacked it on.
It's no mystery that they added it in to purely extend the game's overall market value, and the MP achievements (while an assumption) does at least ensure they have the statistics to say people actually play their game online. If the MP actually looked decent there probably wouldn't be half as many complaints. It doesn't. It looks like a bolted on pile of shit.Minimal effort, maximum return.

Yes, no one if forcing anyone to play the MP.
But imagine the resources that could have gone into creating a better and more fun SP experience instead draining them into producing something that is not needed and something they knew people were going to be resistant towards in the first place.

What are you most looking forward to about the MP from what you have seen? What part of it doesn't look tacked on to you? MP is not needed in Tomb Raider. Watch them add DLC map packs later on.
__________________
Takamura Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 06:42 PM   #33
Sonnenberg
 
Sonnenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 307

S0NNENBERG's Gamercard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Of 87 View Post
This isn't confirmation of MP achievement at all.
At 3:55 you see the player plant a snare, when they go back up the stairs you can see a player crouched over and undoing themselves.
I'm assuming Entrapment just requires snaring an enemy. This sounds like it could easily be unlocked in both SP and MP.
good call bro....

http://www.xbox360achievements.org/g.../achievements/
__________________
Sonnenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 06:44 PM   #34
Sonnenberg
 
Sonnenberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 307

S0NNENBERG's Gamercard
Quote:
Originally Posted by singhellotaku617 View Post
Alright NOW we know that mp achievements are confirmed, and there are several, including a max level one, weak

14 for 250g

game looks cool, but these achievements have just made my decision for me...

it's clear that the dev doesn't care about the player... they make these achievements as a gimmick for people to play their mp...

makes no sense as this is a single player game that is supposed to have a rich single player mode...

oh well 60 bucks for me to spend on another dev...
__________________
Sonnenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 08:57 PM   #35
CelticWarriorDB
 
CelticWarriorDB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 257

CelticWarriorDB's Gamercard
Quote:
It's no mystery that they added it in to purely extend the game's overall market value, and the MP achievements (while an assumption) does at least ensure they have the statistics to say people actually play their game online. If the MP actually looked decent there probably wouldn't be half as many complaints. It doesn't. It looks like a bolted on pile of shit.Minimal effort, maximum return.
Wow, don't even know where to begin. No shit that's what MP is for, to extend the time you play the game. That is the purpose of MP, and it always has been. Do you think people would've played nearly as much time as they have with Goldeneye, Halo, COD, almost any fighter, if it did not have MP? Nope, they wouldn't have, and that's why MP is there.

'If the MP was decent then wouldn't be half as many complaints?' Really? Then why do all the complaints pretty much say 'OMG, they're trying to get the COD audience. MP does not belong in Tomb Raider. OMG, I hate MP achievements.' None of those are general criticisms of the mode itself, and what could be used to improve it.

Quote:
Yes, no one if forcing anyone to play the MP. But imagine the resources that could have gone into creating a better and more fun SP experience instead draining them into producing something that is not needed and something they knew people were going to be resistant towards in the first place.
Once again, this is just a big assumption. How do you know for a fact that the SP portion of the game would be better if it did not have MP? MP was introduced in the Uncharted franchise, and that didn't take anything away from the SP part of the game, so why should this? MP in other series didn't take away from the SP portion as well, so once again, why should this?

Quote:
What are you most looking forward to about the MP from what you have seen? What part of it doesn't look tacked on to you? MP is not needed in Tomb Raider. Watch them add DLC map packs later on.
First off (another assumption) I never said I was looking forward to this MP. All I'm saying is that complaining about it and the MP achievements, when you don't even have to bother with them to begin with, is completely pointless. I didn't much care for Dead Space 2s multiplayer, so after trying it, I stopped playing it. I didn't stop me from enjoying the game at all. Why should it being any different for this game?

From what I've seen from the multiplayer, it looks a lot like Uncharteds', which could end up being good, as people have enjoyed that MP. Kind of hard to actually say how it will end up being, as the game is not out yet, but that hasn't stopped people from throwing out assumptions before.

Who are you to dictate what developers should put into their games? A lot of developers have had their games get a lot of popularity due to having MP included. Imagine if people told Bungie to not put MP into the Halo series. Would the series have become as popular as it has? Nope, not even close.

When the game comes out, and the mode actually ends up not being that good, then people voice their displeasure about it, then they most likely won't include it again. However, I don't see what the problem is with them trying something out first.
__________________
CelticWarriorDB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 09:20 PM   #36
xTGMx INF3RNO
 
xTGMx INF3RNO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bedfordshire, UK
Posts: 5,166

xTGMx INF3RNO's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 5,000 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
We have now all seen this http://www.xbox360achievements.org/g.../achievements/

FUCK! WHY.

MP in a tomb raider game. What is happening
__________________


xTGMx INF3RNO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 09:40 PM   #37
jswartz0181
 
jswartz0181's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Iowa City IA
Posts: 1,120
Send a message via AIM to jswartz0181 Send a message via MSN to jswartz0181 Send a message via Yahoo to jswartz0181

JSwartz0181's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 1,000 Posts   Submit - Bronze
Total Awards: 2 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
Wow, don't even know where to begin. No shit that's what MP is for, to extend the time you play the game. That is the purpose of MP, and it always has been. Do you think people would've played nearly as much time as they have with Goldeneye, Halo, COD, almost any fighter, if it did not have MP? Nope, they wouldn't have, and that's why MP is there.
Except shooters and fighters have pretty much essentially always required some form of MP. Back in the day, going to the arcade and playing Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat or whatever other fighter they had, you almost always played against another person and not the AI (unless nobody else was around). With shooters, people have always wanted to play with/against their friends/other people, and not some AI that acts in predetermined manners. So it's the nature of those games that MP would be included, not as something added solely to extend the game's life.

TR though has always been a story-based, single-player franchise, where you're doing your thing alone; Lara doesn't have squadmates. Nowhere in the franchise can one look and say "This would be so much better if I could play this with/against someone!" That's why MP here has the appearance of being tacked on just to extend the game's life -- it certainly wasn't because it was a natural inclusion.

Also, there has been plenty of complaining about how the MP looks boring/uninspired/just an Uncharted wannabe. If there wasn't, there'd not be so much talk of having to grind thru the levels (if it looked enjoyable, it wouldn't be a grind).

Last edited by jswartz0181; 01-20-2013 at 09:47 PM.
jswartz0181 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 10:10 PM   #38
CelticWarriorDB
 
CelticWarriorDB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 257

CelticWarriorDB's Gamercard
Quote:
Except shooters and fighters have pretty much essentially always required some form of MP. Back in the day, going to the arcade and playing Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat or whatever other fighter they had, you almost always played against another person and not the AI (unless nobody else was around). With shooters, people have always wanted to play with/against their friends/other people, and not some AI that acts in predetermined manners. So it's the nature of those games that MP would be included, not as something added solely to extend the game's life.
That's not entirely true. There have been shooters that do not have MP and ended up doing well, half-life being a good example. Also, what you don't understand is that is still exactly why MP is used, to extend the games' life. Most shooters and fighters would not be played nearly as much without the inclusion of MP, hence why it extends their life, and it is why people still play those games today.

Quote:
TR though has always been a story-based, single-player franchise, where you're doing your thing alone; Lara doesn't have squadmates. Nowhere in the franchise can one look and say "This would be so much better if I could play this with/against someone!" That's why MP here has the appearance of being tacked on just to extend the game's life -- it certainly wasn't because it was a natural inclusion.
Once again, another assumption. I highly doubt the developers looked at it and went 'oh look lets add some MP and make some more money off of it.' Firstly, nothing really shows that for a fact, they will make more money off of adding in MP. If anything, they might lose some money due to people whining and crying about it. So, why take that risk? It's probably because they think that people might like it.

I don't remember people wanting MP in Uncharted, yet that didn't stop them from adding it in, and becoming a hit with it. Why shouldn't the developers of Tomb Raider want to see if the same thing can happen with them?

Quote:
Also, there has been plenty of complaining about how the MP looks boring/uninspired/just an Uncharted wannabe. If there wasn't, there'd not be so much talk of having to grind thru the levels (if it looked enjoyable, it wouldn't be a grind).
First off, I don't see what's wrong with being an Uncharted wanna be. The game is a huge hit, and the MP has worked. I don't see what's so wrong about it being pushed over to more audiences, seeing as how that game will never be on the 360.

What you also said here proved my point. 'If it looked enjoyable, it wouldn't be a grind.' Okay then, why do you suggest to make it enjoyable? Yet all I hear is 'OMG, MP does not belong in Tomb Raider. Fuck MP achievements in Tomb Raider.' Those are not valid criticisms on how to improve the mode. If there were valid criticisms and suggestions on improving the mode, that would be different, yet they don't seem to exist.

Also, what needs to be a grind? It doesn't need to be, because it's an entirely optional mode that does not need to be touched at all. That's what people don't seem to understand.
__________________
CelticWarriorDB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 11:00 PM   #39
jswartz0181
 
jswartz0181's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Iowa City IA
Posts: 1,120
Send a message via AIM to jswartz0181 Send a message via MSN to jswartz0181 Send a message via Yahoo to jswartz0181

JSwartz0181's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 1,000 Posts   Submit - Bronze
Total Awards: 2 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
First off, I don't see what's wrong with being an Uncharted wanna be.
What's wrong with TR wanting to be like a game that itself is a TR clone? \:|
jswartz0181 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 12:25 AM   #40
KuShNsTieN
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 567

KuShNsTieN's Gamercard
If anything, most of these multiplayer achievements can be boosted easily if you get a full lobby. The only one i worry about is the level 60
KuShNsTieN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 12:31 AM   #41
Takamura Bear
 
Takamura Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,789

Awards Showcase 1,000 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
Wow, don't even know where to begin. No shit that's what MP is for, to extend the time you play the game. That is the purpose of MP, and it always has been. Do you think people would've played nearly as much time as they have with Goldeneye, Halo, COD, almost any fighter, if it did not have MP? Nope, they wouldn't have, and that's why MP is there.
Yeah, but that's because COD, Goldeneye, Halo, being FPS, are better suited to a MP experience and are practically self explanatory. What do people normally associate Tomb Raider with? Hours of exploration in the single player, not gunning each other down in team deathmatch. There was no obvious demand for a MP unlike the games listed there.

There's a difference between trying something new and adding something that just doesn't belong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
'If the MP was decent then wouldn't be half as many complaints?' Really? Then why do all the complaints pretty much say 'OMG, they're trying to get the COD audience. MP does not belong in Tomb Raider. OMG, I hate MP achievements.' None of those are general criticisms of the mode itself, and what could be used to improve it.
I take it you've only been reading the complaints on the comments section on the main page? From what I've seen everywhere else, aside from that, most of the complaints have been geared toward the terrible hit-detection, only three game modes, five small ass maps and only 4v4 max players. Are these not valid complaints for some to voice their concerns?

Why are they are giving gamers a reason to attach any bad flack to the re-boot because of a lousy MP experience if it isn't up to scratch? If it hurts the game's reputation, it hurts the game's reputation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
Once again, this is just a big assumption. How do you know for a fact that the SP portion of the game would be better if it did not have MP? MP was introduced in the Uncharted franchise, and that didn't take anything away from the SP part of the game, so why should this? MP in other series didn't take away from the SP portion as well, so once again, why should this?
My point was, resources that could have gone into single player experience have been siphoned away to develop the MP. That is my main concern here because I'm most looking forward that more than anything. I want the best single player experience possible with no shortcomings and no "if only they put more time into this" like-scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
First off (another assumption) I never said I was looking forward to this MP. All I'm saying is that complaining about it and the MP achievements, when you don't even have to bother with them to begin with, is completely pointless. I didn't much care for Dead Space 2s multiplayer, so after trying it, I stopped playing it. I didn't stop me from enjoying the game at all. Why should it being any different for this game?
Yeah, but try saying that to someone else who takes achievements and completion very seriously. From their perspective, adding achievements for something that's supposed to be "optional" is like adding insult to injury for some because they feel like they're forced to play something they won't enjoy if they want to complete the game. That's the only way I can put it, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
From what I've seen from the multiplayer, it looks a lot like Uncharted's, which could end up being good, as people have enjoyed that MP. Kind of hard to actually say how it will end up being, as the game is not out yet, but that hasn't stopped people from throwing out assumptions before.
Just because it looks like Uncharted, doesn't mean it will be as successful or play as well. At least the developers of Uncharted seemed to have put in a lot into the thinking process for implementing a MP, not just some half ass attempt. Uncharted 3 was far more ambitious with co-operative and competitive MP and had more than just three game modes. Tomb Raider's MP doesn't. It looks so tacked on it's as clear as day. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
Who are you to dictate what developers should put into their games? A lot of developers have had their games get a lot of popularity due to having MP included. Imagine if people told Bungie to not put MP into the Halo series. Would the series have become as popular as it has? Nope, not even close.
First off, I'm not dictating anything, Celtic. Secondly, I'm simply voicing my own view on what looks, to me, a tacked on, half assed attempt at including a MP mode into the franchise.

And Bungie were practically begged to include a competitive MP after the first Halo game. Again, it's almost self-explanatory for a FPS to include a MP in this day and age. What works in one genre doesn't equate to success and word wide approval in another. Nor does it ensure the online community will be as active either. How many people play, say, The Darkness online compared to your CODs, Halos and Battlefields?

Tomb Raider was already a household name with a big following without MP even before those games ever existed,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
When the game comes out, and the mode actually ends up not being that good, then people voice their displeasure about it, then they most likely won't include it again. However, I don't see what the problem is with them trying something out first.
But why can't people voice their displeasure at something that has been shown off by the developers themselves and looks pretty fucking terrible for that matter? Isn't that the whole point of previews/general feedback/whatever?

What they should have done was introduce a beta, so that players could then at least try it out for themselves and offer some feedback to which they could make improvements to their product before release. Not announce it two months before release and expect everyone to be okay with it. They're just adding fuel to the fire here, like it or not.
__________________
Takamura Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:21 AM   #42
Xenolith666
 
Xenolith666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 3rd rock
Posts: 1,959

Xenolith666's Gamercard

Awards Showcase Submit - Bronze   Staff Club - Never Final   Staff Club - Gackt   Staff Club - * Clueless *   Over Achiever - Gold   Micro Guide - Silver   1,000 Posts   Achievement Guide - Bronze   Road Map - Bronze
Total Awards: 9 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xTGMx INF3RNO View Post
We have now all seen this http://www.xbox360achievements.org/g.../achievements/

FUCK! WHY.

MP in a tomb raider game. What is happening
did you say the same thing when they added MP to Assassin's Creed? i'm assuming your a fan.. that was another perfectly good SP game they threw MP on.. same with Dead Space (at least there were no achievements)

Add whatever crappy MP you want.. but don't add achievements to it if you (the developer) know it's gonna suck
__________________
100% RPG's: 44
Proudest: Star Ocean; Dark Souls
Failing to Understand our Capacity for Kindness


Last edited by Xenolith666; 01-21-2013 at 01:26 AM.
Xenolith666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:38 AM   #43
SmarmySmurf
 
SmarmySmurf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 131

SmarmySmurf's Gamercard
Quote:
Originally Posted by jswartz0181 View Post
What's wrong with TR wanting to be like a game that itself is a TR clone? \:|
Because they are (were) still pretty different. TR is (was) one of my favorite series, I've played every installment from the first to completion. Uncharted I couldn't even bother to finish 1 or 2 and never even tried the 3rd. Hated the characters (mostly), hated the decreased emphasis on puzzles and exploration, hated the cover based shooting, the overemphasis on QTE and making platforming 'cinematic', and definitely couldn't even fake interest in the MP.

Everything points to TR now ripping off exclusively the things I hate about Uncharted and shedding exclusively the things I always loved about TR. Is it objectively "wrong" in the scheme of things? Probably not, it might even be good for their bottom line--but it definitely is subjectively horrible for me, and unless I'm knocked off my feet in (positive) surprise when I rent it, it's the death of one of my top ten all-time favorite series.

MP is just one symptom of it, and MP cheevos just one indication of how many fucks Crystal Dynamics doesn't give about a certain group of longtime fans. IMO. But I'm not going to begrudge MP/Uncharted fans their enjoyment. I'm just going to be very sad (and possibly melodramatic).
__________________
SmarmySmurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 02:06 AM   #44
alec_006
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 56

i am el kabong's Gamercard
To be honest, there is a massive market for multiplayer and the size of the online community makes it almost impossible to ignore trying a multiplayer aspect. There are always exceptions like Skyrim, Dishonored and such, but Mass Effect 3 wasn't hurt bu multiplayer and the single player campaign was still sublime. And it was always a single player franchise.

I think we tend to get a little too protective of our single player campaigns
__________________
53 100% Retail Completed
2 100% Arcade Completed

100+ Standard Skylanders Collected

First Austrailian to 1000 points in Tropico 3
alec_006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:50 AM   #45
CelticWarriorDB
 
CelticWarriorDB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 257

CelticWarriorDB's Gamercard
Quote:
Yeah, but that's because COD, Goldeneye, Halo, being FPS, are better suited to a MP experience and are practically self explanatory. What do people normally associate Tomb Raider with? Hours of exploration in the single player, not gunning each other down in team deathmatch. There was no obvious demand for a MP unlike the games listed there.

There's a difference between trying something new and adding something that just doesn't belong.
There's been plenty of games that MP was not demanded for, yet it was included, and people actually ended up liking it. Also, adding a new mode to a game is trying something new. That wasn't a demand for MP in Mass Effect 3, yet a lot of people still play it, and a lot of people have ended up enjoying it.

Quote:
I take it you've only been reading the complaints on the comments section on the main page? From what I've seen everywhere else, aside from that, most of the complaints have been geared toward the terrible hit-detection, only three game modes, five small ass maps and only 4v4 max players. Are these not valid complaints for some to voice their concerns?

Why are they are giving gamers a reason to attach any bad flack to the re-boot because of a lousy MP experience if it isn't up to scratch? If it hurts the game's reputation, it hurts the game's reputation.
There, and other places as well. There hasn't been really any comments on how they could improve the experience. They just want it taken out, and never brought up again. That's not constructive criticism, that's just 'OMG I don't want it, get rid of it!'

Also, once again, seeing as how the game isn't out, it's kind of hard to pinpoint exact problems that the MP might have. If it ends up having other problems, then yeah, there would be valid complaints.

Quote:
My point was, resources that could have gone into single player experience have been siphoned away to develop the MP. That is my main concern here because I'm most looking forward that more than anything. I want the best single player experience possible with no shortcomings and no "if only they put more time into this" like-scenarios.
I understand that concern, but once again, it's an assumption. How do you know that they would've added more stuff to the SP if they had no MP? How do you know that they worked on MP alongside SP? Maybe they did MP after they finished everything with the SP? We just don't know.

Also, the MP hasn't seemed to the hurt the SP of the Uncharted franchise.

Quote:
Yeah, but try saying that to someone else who takes achievements and completion very seriously. From their perspective, adding achievements for something that's supposed to be "optional" is like adding insult to injury for some because they feel like they're forced to play something they won't enjoy if they want to complete the game. That's the only way I can put it, really.
Okay, and since when should developers cater to just this one type of gamer? Developers should never ever cater to one type of crowd, they should be catering to gamers as a whole, for the most part.

If someone signed up to be a completionist, then they need to suck it up and stop complaining. If that's what they chose to do, then that's what they have to deal with. Me, I love achievements, that's why I'm on this site to begin with. However, if getting an achievement requires me to be completely frustrated, and playing a mode that I absolutely loathe, then I just don't see the point. It seems as though a lot of people forgot what gaming is supposed to be, fun. If I'm not having fun, what's the point?

Quote:
Just because it looks like Uncharted, doesn't mean it will be as successful or play as well. At least the developers of Uncharted seemed to have put in a lot into the thinking process for implementing a MP, not just some half ass attempt. Uncharted 3 was far more ambitious with co-operative and competitive MP and had more than just three game modes. Tomb Raider's MP doesn't. It looks so tacked on it's as clear as day. That's what I'm trying to get at.
That's why you have to, once again, give it a chance, and wait for it to come out before judging it. I'll grant you, Uncharted does have more modes, now, but when it first came out, it didn't have a lot of modes. It did have co-op, but people would probably be complaining about that for this game as well lol

Smaller game modes aren't that big of a deal to me, because that's usually what happens in a MP game. Only a select few game modes have a lot of traffic, while the rest pretty much are a ghost town.

Quote:
First off, I'm not dictating anything, Celtic. Secondly, I'm simply voicing my own view on what looks, to me, a tacked on, half assed attempt at including a MP mode into the franchise.

And Bungie were practically begged to include a competitive MP after the first Halo game. Again, it's almost self-explanatory for a FPS to include a MP in this day and age. What works in one genre doesn't equate to success and word wide approval in another. Nor does it ensure the online community will be as active either. How many people play, say, The Darkness online compared to your CODs, Halos and Battlefields?

Tomb Raider was already a household name with a big following without MP even before those games ever existed
That's not what I was getting at, I was getting at the points that have been made that 'MP is not needed in this game. Developers need to stop putting in MP and MP achievements.' That's basically dictating what developers should be putting in their games. There really is no rule(s) at all as to what certain games should be like, or what modes should be in certain game genres. Developers should be able to put in, and do what they want with their titles. They only time that it should be a problem is if said mode is not good at all, and falls flat.

My point about Bungie was that it was a different time back then. Nowadays you have people ranting and raving for almost every game with MP achievements. If Halo 2, when it first came out, had a bunch of those, people would be complaining about it, as they are right now with this game.

You're right, what works in one genre doesn't always work in the other ones. However, that doesn't mean it holds true for every single game in said genre. MP has worked in the AC series, when nobody thought it would, as an example. Hell, there are plenty of FPS titles with horrible multiplayer.

You're also right that Tomb Raider was already a household name. Maybe that's why they're trying something different with the series, seeing as how it's already a popular series.

Quote:
But why can't people voice their displeasure at something that has been shown off by the developers themselves and looks pretty fucking terrible for that matter? Isn't that the whole point of previews/general feedback/whatever?

What they should have done was introduce a beta, so that players could then at least try it out for themselves and offer some feedback to which they could make improvements to their product before release. Not announce it two months before release and expect everyone to be okay with it. They're just adding fuel to the fire here, like it or not.
I agree, there should've been a beta, but do you really think that would've stopped the 'MP and MP achievements is not needed in Tomb Raider,' comments? It wouldn't have, no matter what measures they would take.

I have no problem with people voicing their displeasure about stuff, what I have a problem with is people doing it with horrible reasoning and about something that hasn't even been released to the public yet. Once again, I haven't seen many actual constructive criticism comments on how and what steps they could take to make this mode better than what it is. So far, you're the only one that I've seen that has put forth some actual specific problems with the mode itself.
__________________
CelticWarriorDB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 05:37 AM   #46
cab0218
 
cab0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 266

cab0218's Gamercard
Has anyone posted on the official forums about this?
__________________


cab0218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 11:47 AM   #47
MasterSparky
 
MasterSparky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Darlington England
Posts: 530

mastersparky's Gamercard
Collectable achievements harm a game enough (as it takes you out of the main experience searching around, looking at guides etc.) not only has this game got a shit load but they've added in random, pure luck multiplayer achievements and highest rank achievement. + rest of the list is boring as sin. Poor show devs.
__________________


MasterSparky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 05:42 PM   #48
cab0218
 
cab0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 266

cab0218's Gamercard
We should complain to the devs about this maybe they will change it. They did with Metro:Last Light.
__________________


cab0218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 06:46 PM   #49
Aphrodite1
 
Aphrodite1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dorset, England
Posts: 276

Sublimosis's Gamercard
After having read all of these longwinded arguments and posts about the relevance of putting MP cheevos into what has always been historically a SP game, my decision is going to be simple. Avoid and play other titles to keep my completion rate up.

I'm going for Metro Last Light, hopefully Bioshock 3 will feature no MP cheevos and Dead Space 3 as new release titles. I may play this game in the future based on reports on how long it will take to grind out. But as a completionist I will avoid for now. I don't get as much time as I used to on the X Box. There are plenty of other SP and no online games out there to keep me entertained.

I vowed never to play and boost online MP modes after Wolfenstein, Quantum of Solace and Halo 3. All of these took hours and hours to do and was quite frankly a real pain in the arse as well as a time waste. Those pricks at Bungie even had the balls to ban people if they were boosting the cheevos.

This is why I have avoided the newer Assassins Creed titles.

I have played and completed to 100% every tombraider game since the franchise started back on the PS1. Its really sad to see a title that always boasted a wonderfully immersive SP experience being propped up by what I fear will be a shitty MP mode. I may be wrong, but Level 60. That's enough for me to say "Pass" and focus on other titles. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there that share my sentiments.
__________________
100% Retail Completed: 160
100% Arcade Completed: 110

Currently working on:

Retail: Bioshock Infinite
Arcade: Brothers, Mickey Castle of Illusion, Walking Dead Season 2
Aphrodite1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 09:07 PM   #50
Snowed
 
Snowed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 358

Snowed's Gamercard
Absolutely share your sentiments. I've become a completionist since getting back into achievements and so most games I will not play if I don't plan to complete them. There's too many great games I want to play that I can complete to need to worry about ones I won't.

I also refuse to boost any achievement. I think that's cheating and since not a soul cares about anyone else's gamerscore, I earn achievements for myself. If I boosted it it's a hollow victory. Like cheating at solitaire.

That means I'd have to play who knows how many hours of multiplayer that is clearly very mediocre simply to complete it. Not buying. I can't wait for the reviews to applaud the single player and eviscerate the multiplayer. Teach them a lesson about patching together multiplayer experiences no one wants.

They could have at least shamelessly copied Uncharted. That's apparently fun.
__________________
Snowed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 09:39 PM   #51
xTGMx INF3RNO
 
xTGMx INF3RNO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bedfordshire, UK
Posts: 5,166

xTGMx INF3RNO's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 5,000 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenolith666 View Post
did you say the same thing when they added MP to Assassin's Creed? i'm assuming your a fan.. that was another perfectly good SP game they threw MP on.. same with Dead Space (at least there were no achievements)

Add whatever crappy MP you want.. but don't add achievements to it if you (the developer) know it's gonna suck
Of course. I love assassins creed but MP was pointless however its not terrible. Dead space was a shit version of left for dead but I had no reason to play it so I didn't care got all my SP achievements for what is a fantastic game (Cant wait for ds3) Also the same with mass effect 3 but I was forced to play that! It was enjoyable for about an hour..
__________________


xTGMx INF3RNO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 03:33 AM   #52
Takamura Bear
 
Takamura Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,789

Awards Showcase 1,000 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
I understand that concern, but once again, it's an assumption. How do you know that they would've added more stuff to the SP if they had no MP? How do you know that they worked on MP alongside SP? Maybe they did MP after they finished everything with the SP? We just don't know.

Also, the MP hasn't seemed to the hurt the SP of the Uncharted franchise.
You're right, we don't know, so we're making assumptions of an unknown right now.

And Uncharted would be the first set of games I would buy if I ever purchased a PS3. Heard nothing but good praise about the series and they look absolutely gorgeous from what I have seen of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
Okay, and since when should developers cater to just this one type of gamer? Developers should never ever cater to one type of crowd, they should be catering to gamers as a whole, for the most part.
Of course they can put in whatever they want, but only to a certain extent, yes. The decision has to be logical and ultimately has to be in favor of benefiting the fans, the people who choose to buy their product. But that doesn’t always mean include a MP. We, their target sales audience, are the ones who give our judgments to the developers on aspects we love and dislike in games, and yet at times it feels like the industry refuse to recognize them at all.

Historically, MP achievements are not well received by fans regardless of the developers’ intentions for including it in the first place. That’s just the way it is and developers always will receive backlash of any sort if they include them. And as sad as it sounds, MP and achievements together can affect sales and put people off.

If people decide to – judging from a few comments on this site and elsewhere – boycott or cancel their pre-order because of the decision to include a MP mode and a list of achievements along with it, then while they are the ones who miss out on what could be a great game, the developers still have lost out on sales there.

MP can improve sales for other games, but it’s a big risk that developers take that won’t always yield positive results as gamers often voice their opinion with their wallet and not purchase.
I’m not quite in that boat just yet, thankfully.

And I’m pretty sure Tomb Raider alone appeals to a broad range of people anyway. Original fans would buy the game, people who enjoy exploration or puzzles and even the young males who get pleasure over the sight of Lara’s anatomy (you know the devs purposely add “jiggle” effects >_>) is a market in itself.

It will sell regardless because the name is so huge. But if the addition of MP in any way, shape or form affects the game’s reputation or sales it’s going to be disastrous for Crystal Dynamics.
I hope that is not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
If someone signed up to be a completionist, then they need to suck it up and stop complaining. If that's what they chose to do, then that's what they have to deal with. Me, I love achievements, that's why I'm on this site to begin with. However, if getting an achievement requires me to be completely frustrated, and playing a mode that I absolutely loathe, then I just don't see the point. It seems as though a lot of people forgot what gaming is supposed to be, fun. If I'm not having fun, what's the point?

That's not what I was getting at, I was getting at the points that have been made that 'MP is not needed in this game. Developers need to stop putting in MP and MP achievements.' That's basically dictating what developers should be putting in their games. There really is no rule(s) at all as to what certain games should be like, or what modes should be in certain game genres. Developers should be able to put in, and do what they want with their titles. They only time that it should be a problem is if said mode is not good at all, and falls flat.
I understand you here completely, but here me out for a second. Many people play games for different reasons and enjoy certain features more than others. Asking people to stop complaining about something is just never going to work and only causes arguments.

But there are reasons as to why people moan. For one there are few games that have relatively good MP in them. It is incredible difficult to make something work and that's just the issue there. Some MP modes feel so unimaginative and hurried. That can make people weary, particularly if a game in a certain franchise has never had MP before. The problem with MP achievements/trophies is that it affects the way people play the game today, sadly. It really does.

Putting a MP into Tomb Raider is very risky. Change is risky, as well as potentially rewarding, but you can’t assume in the meantime that people won’t voice their displeasure about, no matter how trivial it may seem. It is
their free speech and right to spend their money as they see fit.

My main issue is with the one for reaching level 60, which is a general complaint I have for most games require you to reach the top rank as it is often tedious in approach. Don't get me wrong here - when done correctly achievements can improve the way you play and approach a game from a completely different angle, sometimes in fun and interesting ways.


That one in particular is not. Those types, which require grinding out hours, are often a ploy to keep their servers busy long after people have stopped playing it. In all fairness, though, reaching level 60 on this one might not even take that long for people to unlock at all. And at the same time it could very well take more hours to attain than completing the single player campaign run. But at least Crustal Dynamics could have put some more thought and produced a decent list of achievements compared to the uninspired list what we have now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
I agree, there should've been a beta, but do you really think that would've stopped the 'MP and MP achievements is not needed in Tomb Raider,' comments? It wouldn't have, no matter what measures they would take.

Oh, god no, it wouldn’t stop the moaning. But then there probably wouldn’t be any cause for concern if a MP wasn't included in the first place, no? I mean, what does it say (and this could just be me) about how much confidence Crystal Dynamics has in their own attempt at a MP when they waited so long to announce it just before it’s released to the public?
__________________
Takamura Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 07:13 AM   #53
Wildmn34
 
Wildmn34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,797

Wildmn34's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 2,500 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
Wow, don't even know where to begin. No shit that's what MP is for, to extend the time you play the game. That is the purpose of MP, and it always has been. Do you think people would've played nearly as much time as they have with Goldeneye, Halo, COD, almost any fighter, if it did not have MP? Nope, they wouldn't have, and that's why MP is there.
In my humble opinion MP should not be about extending the playtime of a game. Rather it should be about enhancing my experience with a game. Give me a good experience, with great game play, solid controls, etc and I will keep playing it. It's really that simple.

You can not agrue (well you probably can and will) that there are some games that MP is a logical extension of. Shooters, fighting games, racing games, etc. I can logically expect some type of MP game play. Rather it be full on MP, Co- Op or what have you.

However, when I think of Tomb Raider, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Skyrim etc there is not a very logical extension to reach for MP. Granted logic and profit are two totally different things. There are some games I want to play with friends, and there are others that I don't.

As a consumer, I like to think I am educated and make good purchasing decisions. Sure, sometimes I miss, but most often I do some research to know what I am buying.

There was a video I watched from the Dev of TR that made this leap of logic. The guy said (and I may misquote the exact phrase) That they wanted to add MP to TR because of the sucess of Lara Croft Guardian of Light.

The problem with that logic is LC:GoL was a Co-Op game from the start. That's how it was meant to be played. The MP in the new TR from everything I have read and watched looks, and sounds terrible. So, I am choosing not to play it.

But, with 25% of the achievements (and by that math 25% of the game experience) not being something I am interested in I have decided to not buy the game. I will wait until there is a big price drop/sale/etc so that the cost of what I pay is more in line to how much I expect to play it. But, I will try extra hard to find it used so that I don't support the Devs decesion which I think is wrong.

That's my choice as a consumer, which is disappointing to me because I have always been a huge fan of the TR franchise. I have had the game preorded for months and had upgraded to the CE edition. Just like it is your right to stick up for it and give it a chance. I don't think you're wrong for that, and I'd expect you to not think I am wrong for not getting it.
__________________
Your dog may know how to sit and stay, but mine steals bank accounts. She's the true Watch Dog!

Thanks Rajeanero for the awesome work.
Wildmn34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 03:33 PM   #54
Tubby 94
 
Tubby 94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: brampton, ontairio
Posts: 567

Tubby94's Gamercard

Awards Showcase Over Achiever - Gold   Achievement Guide - Bronze   Word of Mouth
Total Awards: 3 (more» ...)
In all honesty they should of scraped MP to focus on a solid single player experience, after all that's what a Tomb Raider game is all about. I'm still willing to give this a shot though
__________________
Total completed Games: 221

Retail Games completed: 146


Arcade games completed:75


Tubby 94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #55
freedomgeass
 
freedomgeass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 46

Assassiness7's Gamercard
it would have been nice if they made it like the mass effect online achievements
__________________
please send reason for friend request
freedomgeass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:22 AM   #56
CelticWarriorDB
 
CelticWarriorDB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 257

CelticWarriorDB's Gamercard
Quote:
In my humble opinion MP should not be about extending the playtime of a game. Rather it should be about enhancing my experience with a game. Give me a good experience, with great game play, solid controls, etc and I will keep playing it. It's really that simple.

You can not agrue (well you probably can and will) that there are some games that MP is a logical extension of. Shooters, fighting games, racing games, etc. I can logically expect some type of MP game play. Rather it be full on MP, Co- Op or what have you.
I agree with you, the problem is that you're assuming that this MP will not do that at all. It just might, you won't know unless you give it shot.

On your second point here, I do agree to an extent. However, you won't know what certain modes will work with a game unless you give it a try. Otherwise it just becomes a 'what if' scenario. If they try it, and it ends up not being good at all, they will not do it again.

Quote:
However, when I think of Tomb Raider, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Skyrim etc there is not a very logical extension to reach for MP. Granted logic and profit are two totally different things. There are some games I want to play with friends, and there are others that I don't.
However that is what you think. That doesn't mean that everybody thinks that way, and that doesn't mean that developers should be catering to just one specific mindset. A lot of people enjoy playing AC online, for example. Hell I know someone in real life that finds it really fun, and it's her favorite MP online game. Why can't that be left alone for people like her that enjoy it, and the people that don't can just ignore it and move on?

Quote:
There was a video I watched from the Dev of TR that made this leap of logic. The guy said (and I may misquote the exact phrase) That they wanted to add MP to TR because of the sucess of Lara Croft Guardian of Light.

The problem with that logic is LC:GoL was a Co-Op game from the start. That's how it was meant to be played. The MP in the new TR from everything I have read and watched looks, and sounds terrible. So, I am choosing not to play it.
The problem with what you're saying here is that once the game comes out, it will have MP from the start, just like GoL had co-op from the start. You're assuming that they didn't have this MP in their mindset from the start and only started doing it way later on after development.

There's also a difference between looking at something, and then playing it. When I first saw my friend play Halo online, I didn't see what the big deal was. Then I started playing it, and I had a lot of fun.

You never know unless you try first, and then you can make your judgment.

Quote:
But, with 25% of the achievements (and by that math 25% of the game experience) not being something I am interested in I have decided to not buy the game. I will wait until there is a big price drop/sale/etc so that the cost of what I pay is more in line to how much I expect to play it. But, I will try extra hard to find it used so that I don't support the Devs decesion which I think is wrong.

That's my choice as a consumer, which is disappointing to me because I have always been a huge fan of the TR franchise. I have had the game preorded for months and had upgraded to the CE edition. Just like it is your right to stick up for it and give it a chance. I don't think you're wrong for that, and I'd expect you to not think I am wrong for not getting it.
This is what I don't get...You're saying that you're a huge fan of this franchise, yet you're letting something like achievements get in the way of a franchise that you like? I'm sorry, but that mindset doesn't make that much sense to me. I mean, what if the older TR games had achievements you didn't like. Would you push those the side as well, and never have played them?

I'm not 'sticking up for it' per se (It doesn't matter to me whether the MP ends up being good or not) I just don't get the mindset of that we should just ignore the entire game, for what it has to offer just because of something trivial like MP achievements, or pass judgment without even trying it out first. I don't let achievements dictate the games that I purchase. I play games that I feel that I will have fun with, and I will go after the achievements that I would like to.
__________________

Last edited by CelticWarriorDB; 01-23-2013 at 04:35 AM.
CelticWarriorDB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:37 AM   #57
Wildmn34
 
Wildmn34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,797

Wildmn34's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 2,500 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticWarriorDB View Post
I'm not 'sticking up for it' per se, I just don't get the mindset of that we should just ignore the entire game, for what it has to offer just because of something trivial like MP achievements. I don't let achievements dictate the games that I purchase. I play games that I feel that I will have fun with, and I will go after the achievements that I would like to.
I understand what you're saying, really I do. At the same point, do you see what I mean when I say I don't want to pay $60 for a game to try something I'm reasonably certain I won't like?

I'm not letting the achievements dictate my purchase. What I am saying is that if they are using (just based ON the achievement percentage) 25% of their resources/budget, etc on making the MP that's a 25% decrease in what I was expecting to enjoy.

I have watched, and read everything that has been released about the MP. I'm just not interested in it. I don't want/need another MP game, I have plenty of those already. I absolutely agree that others may want and embrace this. If they do, hey more power to them. They are more than welcome to support Crystal Dynamics and pay the $60. I'm just not willing to do that for a mode(s) I legitimately don't think I'll enjoy or every want to play.

I absolutely dispise the MP for Assassin's Creed as well. Tried it a couple times and will never try it again. Like I said before, the only way I can really voice my displeasure is by buying the game or not buying the game. That's the only power I have as a consumer. If I buy it and bitch about it, then it doesn't matter because Crystal Dynamics already has my money. Know what I mean?

PS: I love good discussions without people getting bent out of shape.
__________________
Your dog may know how to sit and stay, but mine steals bank accounts. She's the true Watch Dog!

Thanks Rajeanero for the awesome work.
Wildmn34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:15 AM   #58
cab0218
 
cab0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 266

cab0218's Gamercard
I think we should voice our concerns on their forums if they have any.
__________________


cab0218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:22 AM   #59
Wildmn34
 
Wildmn34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,797

Wildmn34's Gamercard

Awards Showcase 2,500 Posts
Total Awards: 1 (more» ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cab0218 View Post
I think we should voice our concerns on their forums if they have any.
Why, it won't do a damn bit of good. They've already made the MP, and are "polishing" it up for release in March. Do you think they'll say "Oh, some people don't want it maybe we should take it out."?

Like I said above. The only way to truely voice your displeasure is to not buy the game.
__________________
Your dog may know how to sit and stay, but mine steals bank accounts. She's the true Watch Dog!

Thanks Rajeanero for the awesome work.
Wildmn34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:23 PM   #60
cab0218
 
cab0218's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 266

cab0218's Gamercard
I wont buy it but I still think we should complain so they know. It worked with Metro: Last Light but from what I have heard they were not far with the Multiplayer.
__________________


cab0218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:08 AM.