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Old 03-27-2013, 10:54 AM   #1
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End Game discussion - MAJOR SPOILERS INSIDE

Having just finished this, I can see a lot of questions/discussions on the plot and the finale.

Please keep all discussions in here ONLY!
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:57 AM   #2
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So when Booker killed crazy cult leader guy, was he basically killing his future self? I think this is the first game I've played where it turns out that the main character is also sort of the antagonist.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:08 AM   #3
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So when Booker killed crazy cult leader guy, was he basically killing his future self? I think this is the first game I've played where it turns out that the main character is also sort of the antagonist.
Not his future self, it's himself from another reality, at the baptism booker refused to be baptised and carried on how he was however there is another reality where booker got baptised and was reborn as the prophet comstock.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:24 AM   #4
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Loved the ending. Thought it was awsome that you were transported back to Rapture. Was thinking when the twist was goning to show and was stunned when it happened. Well done Irrational Games. There are some things that got me confused so i will play through again and try to find all diaries. (missed 7 i think)
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:04 PM   #5
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Yeah i loved the ending as well but it leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

Did Comstock use Elizabeth to transport him into another dimension with Booker Dewitt.
I remember Elizabeth telling Booker that Comstock has been here before or is that because they was at the baptism place and that was when we was reborn?
Has anyone else watched all the way through to the credits when it shows Booker sitting in his chair to get up and open the door to Anna's room and it cuts to black just before we find out if Anna is in the room?
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:16 PM   #6
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Yeh i saw the end credits. Liked the duet form the vioce actor too.

I believe the twins made a machine that could jump dimentions. They harnessed it from Eizabeth while she was locked away in the tower as she explains that she used to be able to do it but over the years has had her powers drained. The twins were killed because of what they knew. I got that from an audio diary that was in their house while i was on my way to the Comstock house.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayden View Post
Having just finished this, I can see a lot of questions/discussions on the plot and the finale.

Please keep all discussions in here ONLY!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertco...izarre-ending/
This helped with the mind fucking that happened to me.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:09 PM   #8
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Loved the ending. Thought it was awsome that you were transported back to Rapture. Was thinking when the twist was goning to show and was stunned when it happened. Well done Irrational Games. There are some things that got me confused so i will play through again and try to find all diaries. (missed 7 i think)
Yeah. That was a complete shock to me too and was unexpected and awesome. I was so hoping there would be a Big Daddy strolling around but nope.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:16 PM   #9
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Yeah. That was a complete shock to me too and was unexpected and awesome. I was so hoping there would be a Big Daddy strolling around but nope.
Actually, at one point you can see a Little Sister standing near a Big Daddy corpse through the window. But that's about it.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:00 PM   #10
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Not his future self, it's himself from another reality, at the baptism booker refused to be baptised and carried on how he was however there is another reality where booker got baptised and was reborn as the prophet comstock.
You sure? I thought that Comstock's knowledge of events that hadn't played out yet (thus his position as 'prophet') was related to the fact that he'd experienced them before once. I also thought that was the entire reason that letting yourself drown actually averted the sequence of events. Comstock also seems super old, and Booker doesn't.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:11 PM   #11
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I loved the quick visit to Rapture, they did a great job with it. They could have easily made it feel like they only brought you there or made reference to it because fans would bitch if it didn't show up, but they didn't.

I liked the the "there's always a man, there's always a city" bit. Makes me wonder if there is a tie between Ryan and Comstock or if maybe one particular universe gives rise to Ryan due to a lack of Comstock.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:43 PM   #12
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You know one thing I was curious about that I may have missed was how Elizabeth got the ability to open tears. Was she born that way, given the power or is it never really explained?
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:44 PM   #13
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You sure? I thought that Comstock's knowledge of events that hadn't played out yet (thus his position as 'prophet') was related to the fact that he'd experienced them before once. I also thought that was the entire reason that letting yourself drown actually averted the sequence of events. Comstock also seems super old, and Booker doesn't.
Not 100% no. What I understood was that comstock was aware of all these events as he had viewed them through alternate worlds via tears, due to prolonged exposure to tears he aged faster and became sterile hence why he ordered the male Lutece twin (who are not twins at all but the same person from different worlds) to go get Anna/Elizabeth as he couldn't have a child of his own.

I could be wrong though and will be happy to read any other views
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:56 PM   #14
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Not 100% no. What I understood was that comstock was aware of all these events as he had viewed them through alternate worlds via tears, due to prolonged exposure to tears he aged faster and became sterile hence why he ordered the male Lutece twin (who are not twins at all but the same person from different worlds) to go get Anna/Elizabeth as he couldn't have a child of his own.

I could be wrong though and will be happy to read any other views
That would make sense.

I thought that the whole Booker/Comstock thing was a bizarre self-perpetuating loop where, after failing to save Elizabeth, Booker sought freedom from his prior sins (baptism and whatnot), ultimately became very successful, and was able to utilize technology produced by Lutece to ensure that he was able to be the one that purchased his daughter from himself. I thought that the tower thing was to protect her from Booker, that his foreknowledge of Booker's actions was drawn from his own memories.

I thought that the loop aspect was why there were so many different iterations of the same sequence of events (other lighthouses, other Elizabeths); each was slightly different because Comstock was anticipating his own previous actions. I thought that by drowning, he was eliminating Comstock, which is why you get the scene at the very end where Booker is still with his daughter; no one offered to pay off his gambling debts in exchange for his daughter.

Gonna have to pay more attention second time through, though. Doing my 1999/no dollar bill store run now.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:40 PM   #15
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You know one thing I was curious about that I may have missed was how Elizabeth got the ability to open tears. Was she born that way, given the power or is it never really explained?
I just assumed that The Luteces and Comstock experimented on her after they took her.

My mouth was wide open during the ending. From when Comstock died on, it was a perpetual mind fuck. It was nice to see Rapture mentioned. I was a little confused at some points but reading that Forbes artical helped sew it together after I slept a bit.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:56 PM   #16
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This took me a while to process but here it is. The game plays off of mostly two alternate Earths where one Booker has a daughter named Anna and doesn't go through with his Baptisim and the other where he doesn't have that daughter and he does go through with it and names himself Zachary Comstock. Now through Lucetes, Comstock makes a deal with his alternate self to give away his daughter Anna with the alternate male Lucetes.

Through Lucetes machine the male Lucetes crosses over to her world along with the Comstock of that world taking Anna DeWitt from Booker. Comstock names her Elizabeth and then proceeds to maker her his heir. But because Elizabeth is from an alternate dimension all together she doesn't belong in this one which gives her the ability to break down space and time around her which gave her the ability to open these tears.

Comstock realizes this and has to lock her away in the tower and drain her of her powers so that she doesn't destroy everything. All the while killing anyone who knew of his secret, Lady Comstock and trying to kill the Lucetes. The Lucetes however Comstock tries to kill making them scattered in space time effectively giving them control to alter it.

They go back to Booker in the first earth and cross him over to the Comstock one which causes his memories to be altered but they use him as a tool to get revenge on Comstock and set things right since Comstock has altered space-time and they can't allow his end game to happen.

The whole idea with Rapture is that its just another Bioshock Universe within the infinite multiverse of Bioshock and thats why the developers named the game Bioshock Infinite.

Alright after stating all of that my brain hurts.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:57 PM   #17
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What of the scene after the credits? Was that just a point in time where Booker hadn't given up Anna yet?
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:59 PM   #18
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What of the scene after the credits? Was that just a point in time where Booker hadn't given up Anna yet?
I believe it was just space time correcting itself so that everything was normal again and Comstock never went through to the other world. The crossing of dimensions never occured in the first place.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:16 PM   #19
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Wait if by being baptized he becomes comstock, at the start of the game he chooses to get baptized is that a twist in itself?

EDIT: I do remember though playing it with my friend at the part early on when Elizabeth says something like " You and comstock both have a gift of fortelling the future" I was like what if the twist is that booker is her father. Ended up being right about that lol

This story was awesome.

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Old 03-27-2013, 10:36 PM   #20
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Cool

I've yet to beat the game (and spoilers never bug me, they simply sate my curiosity), but I have to say I put some of this together before getting to the point where the game puts it together for me.

I kept wondering why everytime I died, I was in a black and white room, I opened a door, and was back to where I was in the game world. I also kept wondering why this couple was following me around and doing odd things...

After thinking about it for 8 hours at work and sleeping on it one night... I pieced a lot of it together myself without all the details.

I had assumed the couple following you around was actually Booker and Elizabeth in the future at some point. When I thought about that, it didn't make much sense because they wouldn't be running some of the experiments they were running on you.

What clued me in?

The coin flip.

I saw the tally marks and KNEW Booker was going to say "Tails". It fits with his character. He's a gambler. He's terrible at gambling. But, he always takes the long shot. It came up "Heads". No surprise either. I wondered what that scripted sequence had to do with anything. Then I remembered the BACK of the board and the dialogue. If it were simple time travel, they wouldn't be flipping the coin over and over again to see if it would be different. There wouldn't be a theory that it MIGHT be different. I figured we had to be dealing with "Alternate Dimensions" based on the whole "every choice you make and possible choice spins off a new reality and a new dimension". I giggled to myself when I put that together because what these two were doing was VERY interesting at that point!

They aren't just flipping a coin and seeing if it comes up heads. No, they're trying to figure out if there are events that CANNOT be altered regardless of alternate reality. The man has hypothesized that some events are universal to all realities, no matter the choices or events leading up to that point. After reading the ending, I laughed even more, because it makes PERFECT sense that they're testing it. They've been to HUNDREDS of these alternate realities in which they've asked Booker to call the coin and see how it comes up. In every reality they've been to, it comes up "Heads". When I read that article posted in here, it only furthered that phenomena for me. Why? The guy mentions NEVER seeing an Elizabeth with a different necklace than the one he chose for her. It would be proof that some events that happen always happen in every reality that could take place. Booker chooses the bird, so every Elizabeth in every reality has the bird because in every reality Booker chooses the bird. It becomes a fixed point. It becomes an inevitability. It is a test, an experiment. Can Bookers' "off the cuff" decicisons actually alter all realities in the same way? In every reality does he make that same decision regardless of how he ended up in Columbia? It seems to point to the fact that, yes, it does. If Booker ends up Columbia, he always chooses the same thing for Elizabeth. If he goes there, the coin flip is always Heads. No matter how often the choice is repeated, it bears out the same. That would indicate that some of these "fixed points" must happen in order to maintain absolute stability in space/time. An "infinite" amount of earths for every event and every choice would quickly clutter the entire existance of reality in any form. These "fixed points" likely act as "guard rails". Guard Rails to ensure that the alternate realities aren't TOO different. As in... In one reality the dinosaurs were never killed, but in ours they were. "Random Chance" as it were, would carry across all realities, provided the conditions were met.

If the couple had flipped the coin somewhere else in the alternate reality other than on Columbia, would it have still come out Heads? If they had flipped it for Comstock instead of Booker, would it have still been Heads?

How many Bookers have there been?

Especially if you'd died? It seems that the scene of you opening the door from the "black and white" world is a different reality than the one you were in. Does that mean you are a NEW Booker? I would assume you are as your death doesn't send you into an alternate reality.

As for Comstock actually being Booker... I suspected but couldn't confirm it. I never guessed Elizabeth was Booker's daughter though...

I'm hoping the rest of this game is as interesting as what I've read and experienced so far! I enjoy all these intellectual exercises the game is giving me!
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:01 AM   #21
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You sure? I thought that Comstock's knowledge of events that hadn't played out yet (thus his position as 'prophet') was related to the fact that he'd experienced them before once. I also thought that was the entire reason that letting yourself drown actually averted the sequence of events. Comstock also seems super old, and Booker doesn't.

In one of the voxophones near the end of the game, Lutece says

"The Prophet is dying. The metastasis has aged him so quickly. Why does this Comstock decay, while a Comstock in another world remains fit? If genetics are destiny, what accounts for the difference? Perhaps exposure to the contraption? Hm. It merits further study."

So basically it's saying that Comstock is the same Booker but he's been exposed to the machine Lutece made too many times making him old and sterile but he's seen the Bookers that have a daughter but he needed one for himself to take his place in the city and religion he has built.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:59 AM   #22
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I disagree that it's the same booker, I assumed that booker was pulled from the past slightly and Comstock/Elizabeth are in his future. which is why Comstock is so old and baby Anna has grown up into a 17 year old girl now, as she clearly remembers her childhood it's not just that the machine caused her to age
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:19 AM   #23
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ok I loved the game and the end, but after seeing the ending and reading what a lot of other people here thought...did they seriously just retell the show from Fringe in a different setting

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Old 03-28-2013, 06:51 AM   #24
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I disagree that it's the same booker, I assumed that booker was pulled from the past slightly and Comstock/Elizabeth are in his future. which is why Comstock is so old and baby Anna has grown up into a 17 year old girl now, as she clearly remembers her childhood it's not just that the machine caused her to age

I believe the article explained it as the guy physicist (forget his name) 'hires' Booker to get the girl, bringing him into the world where he is Comstock. Its the same year, but a reality where Comstock got anna at an earlier (1895 if my maths is good) where she has now grown into a 17 year old girl.

The whole job of 'get the girl and the debt is paid' was a memory created by Booker for that world
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:21 AM   #25
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Yeh, I missed and/or misunderstood a few things my first time through. Still kind of don't get why drowning at the baptism would mean much. In an infinite multitude of universes, it seems like you can't really alter much. Lutice did describe it as more of a set of potentialities than a direct future. Not sure.

Only thing that really bothers me is that last sequence. Wounded knee happened in 1890. Elizabeth was born in 1892. If he'd drowned there, he wouldn't have been able to have her. They definitely couldn't have spent time together. Not sure what it implies.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:49 AM   #26
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It's not time travel

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Only thing that really bothers me is that last sequence. Wounded knee happened in 1890. Elizabeth was born in 1892. If he'd drowned there, he wouldn't have been able to have her. They definitely couldn't have spent time together. Not sure what it implies.

I think that some of you guys are missing the point, this isn't time travel, it is travelling to a different universe, they could travel to a different point in time yes but in a different universe it is all irrelevant.

So in unvierse A, Booker is baptised and is reborn as Zachary Comstock, lives his life continuing to live his life, where he meets Lutece (the lady, forgot her name). Where she teaches him about the tears and the multiple universes, and through prolonged use of the machine, because he is using these views to see the future of other universes; that's why he is the future-seeing prophet; he has aged further and became sterile.

And in Universe B, Booker refuses the baptism and lives his life with the shame, or guilt, or whatever other emotions lead him to never knowing the Lutece man, he has a wife and child and continues his life. Through an immense debt, whether it be Gambling debts, or the guilt of the killing the war, I don't think is ever really explained what debt he wanted so badly to be rid of. He hands off Anna to Lutece where you see in the final scenes he tries to refuse again, like the first baptism, but fails.

I'm still a little confused on some of the details as I've yet to find all of the Voxophones, but just trying to clear up for some of you that it isn't like traveling back 17 years and stealing his own daughter, it was taken from one of an infinite amount of universes where Booker was not baptized, because he needed a daughter.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:47 AM   #27
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I think that some of you guys are missing the point, this isn't time travel, it is travelling to a different universe, they could travel to a different point in time yes but in a different universe it is all irrelevant.

So in unvierse A, Booker is baptised and is reborn as Zachary Comstock, lives his life continuing to live his life, where he meets Lutece (the lady, forgot her name). Where she teaches him about the tears and the multiple universes, and through prolonged use of the machine, because he is using these views to see the future of other universes; that's why he is the future-seeing prophet; he has aged further and became sterile.

And in Universe B, Booker refuses the baptism and lives his life with the shame, or guilt, or whatever other emotions lead him to never knowing the Lutece man, he has a wife and child and continues his life. Through an immense debt, whether it be Gambling debts, or the guilt of the killing the war, I don't think is ever really explained what debt he wanted so badly to be rid of. He hands off Anna to Lutece where you see in the final scenes he tries to refuse again, like the first baptism, but fails.

I'm still a little confused on some of the details as I've yet to find all of the Voxophones, but just trying to clear up for some of you that it isn't like traveling back 17 years and stealing his own daughter, it was taken from one of an infinite amount of universes where Booker was not baptized, because he needed a daughter.

Even though they clear it up and everything with him drowning to prevent the rise of Comstock... the after credits bit then doesn't make sense...

If this is Booker in a universe where Comstock never rises to power because he was drowned instead of baptized, how has Booker lived on past that point to have had Anna?
It wouldn't make much sense for this to just be 'another universe' where they prevented Comstock from taking Anna in the first place, because there would still be all the other universes where he did in fact take her, and they only prevented it in the one...



Or is it like... There is only the one universe where he is baptized (lets call that one the universe A) and then the other infinite universes with all the different Comstock universes are made AFTER this point, with them all playing out the same prior to this (Universe A1, A2, A3, etc)
Therefore removing Booker in universe A leads to all the others (Universe A1, A2, A3, etc) simply being removed from the equation [A1, A2, A3, etc no longer exist (and universe A just continued as per normal, with him having just drowned)], and the original Booker your playing as from Universe B will therefore live a completely different life where Comstock doesn't offer to take the child in the first place?



I was so happy i understood it until that final little Schrodinger they throw in there at the very end. It just raises all the questions again.

Sorry if the question kind of made your head explode again.




...Then we all have to love the fact that in Universe C, Booker never exists and Andrew Ryan creates Rapture instead of Columbia being created. 'Always a man, always a city'.





EDIT: Actually i think i answered my own question in my own way.

If we look at it like that in the first place where you have infinite universes playing out the same way with only prior differences then all of them would lead to one point

The Baptism

From here you have two different 'universe trees' (as im going to call them) they are created.

Universe Tree A and Universe Tree B.

Universe Tree A is the one where he is baptised and therefore becomes Comstock, then Creating ALL THE DIFFERENT COMSTOCK UNIVERSES - Universes that will only exist IF he is baptised.

Universe Tree B is much the same, however he isnt baptised and therefore now Tree B has created all the different Booker universes



So at the moment there are only TWO universes (that we care about) - One where he is baptised and One where he isnt.
They go back to the point in Universe Tree A where he SHOULD be baptised - and drown him instead therefore REMOVING Universe Tree A and all its subsequent universes.

This leads to Universe Tree B Booker (the man you are playing as) to have never been given the option to give up Anna, also to Columbia never having existed. He then grows up old with Anna as his daughter (This would explain the little bit after the credits).

We can also imagine that if we look at this as a continuation series, this ending would also allow 'Universe Tree B' to be the universe that Rapture exists... since Columbia doesnt.
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:47 PM   #28
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Not really dig the ending. Personally it would've been great if they just simply stop somewhere right after you went through the first level in Rapture (Bioshock).

All the lighthouse-action made me go insane!
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:09 PM   #29
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Anyone else get a Fringe vibe from the tears / stealing the child?

also the end with the drowning reminded me of the end of Bioshock 2.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:21 PM   #30
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I think the drowning was more of a nexus point, not the true moment it happened but the spot in the multiverse where it WILL always happen. so by drowning Booker at that place and time it prevented any and all bookers from ever getting there, so in theory all other bookers could still exist
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